Intercession and divinty

[Qutbi-Hero]

Intercession is one of the fundamental beliefs of Shia theology so this cannot be argued.

This displays your limited education. No wonder Syedna has you under his thumb after projecting himself as your intercessor!!

What can be debated is whether a Dai has the necessary divine 'rank' as this means equivalence to the Imams.

So according to you, the Imam is divine?

Shia believe in Intercession and yes, our Imams are divine. Only a Sunni would disagree with these articles of faith.

[Qutbi-Hero]

In same way you can get Quran from book shop and read but you cannot correctly and completely understand the subject until guided by authorized person.
You try with small stuff or big, how will you DECIDE if your version of understanding is correct or not??????

The Quran itself says that it is a clear guide. What is so complicated about understanding the Quran?

Have Allah commanded you to use your "rai" or "qayas" to take any subjective religious decision?!! You have to understand Quran as the authorized person (Aayat 4:59) commands by the will of Allah: Mohammed, Ali , Hasan, Hussain, ...Imam Tayyeb a.s. and their authorized persons.

Firstly this Ayat is not specifically talking about the Quran. Secondly, there is no mention in the Quran about Dai's. Thirdly, we should hold the bloodline of the Imams as persons of authority, is the Dai part of this direct bloodline?

[anajmi]

Shia theology is clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran. If you do not believe in the Quran then you are not a Muslim. Why did you join this forum if you are a Wahhabi?

Yeah, according to the saffron brigade even hindu theology is justified and authenticated in the Quran. Everything the kothar and the Syedna do is also justified and authenticated in the Quran.

Can you please post the ayahs of the Quran which say that an Imam is divine?

[Grayson]

Then the shia are mushrik.

According to your particular beliefs and specific interpretations, sure. As long as you're not speaking matter-of-factly on behalf of Allah.

[Grayson]

Matter-of-fact also depends on the extent of one's interpretation, which is rather unique for each person even if they belong to a particular orthodoxy. Their matter-of-fact in belief is no less than your matter-of-fact in designation considering they both invoke the name of Allah, supported by distinct interpretations. Disagree and call out things as you please (it's good you challenge views), but your hard truths aren't true to others (and vice versa), making neither matter-of-fact for anyone but the individuals who believe it.

In regards to intercession I like this answer, regardless of wherever the alignment might be:

Host: Do Muslims believe in intercession or someone being able to intercede with God on their behalf or for others?

Jamal Badawi:

There is a concept in Islam of intercession but not intermediary. The equivalent Arabic term is shafa’a. The reason I am saying it is not intermediary because this means someone standing between two other people. This is totally alien to Islamic thinking because a Muslim believes that there is no intermediary between man and God. Even messengers and great prophets like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBUT) are not regarded as intermediaries between man and God. The relationship between the human and his creator is direct. Those great prophets came to guide us and establish our personal relationship with God.

Intersession in a sense of pleading with God on behalf of someone who might be sinful is different as the person who intercedes has no authority unlike intermediary who has authority. In this limited sense this is admissible. This again should be put in the proper perspective as it can’t contradict one important principle that has been emphasized in the Quran in numerous places that every soul will be held responsible for himself. One can’t throw the blame on others as we are given the faculties and guidance through prophets and everyone has to stand on his own merits.

Even if that merit is imperfect with our human deficiencies and shortcomings we find that the Quran the door is wide open for repentance and correcting the situation directly between God and the person without any intermediary without any confession. The Quran makes it clear that everything can be forgiven accept for one thing and that is to associate others with God. Actually one place in the Quran says “God will not forgive anyone who associates others with Him and He forgives anything that is less than that” for whomever He wishes. Another qualification for this intersession is that this can only be granted after God gives permission. For example in chapter 2 in the Quran it says that no body can intercede with God on behalf of anyone else accept with His permission.

Finally this intersession can’t of anyone but rather must be on behalf of some that is accepted by God. He could be sinful but he is still accepted by God and that there was some trace of faith and goodness in his heart. We find an example of this in (21:28) that those who intercede can only do it on behalf of people who are accepted by God. Of course the clearest intercessor will be Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He said in one of his sayings that he would be an intercessor but again not on behalf of everybody but on behalf of those who deserve it.

http://jamalbadawi.org/index.php?option ... &Itemid=17

[Bohra spring]

Nafisa should not be condemned !

She raises a valid point that while it was ok for SMB to display photos of politicians, kings and celebrities to seek publicity and seek praises it was fine, But now that we want to show the dirty side we are reluctant and upset. If you want to play with fire get used to burns too.

Let us be frank...without external pressure, internal revolt will not succeed. Look around you most revolution required some form of external pressure what here it be society, authorities or international institutions.

[Qutbi-Hero]

If "Imams are divine" is being said matter-of-factly on behalf of Allah, then "shia are mushrik" is also being said matter-of-factly on behalf of Allah.

Was Moullana Ali just an ordinary human being, who purely by coincidence happened to be the cousin and son-in-law of RasulAllah, or was he something more?
Were the grandsons of RasulAllah not all that important, and their deaths something RasulAllah would have approved of?
You do believe that the Prophet Mohammed was divine, or do you have a problem with that too?

[anajmi]

DB

You do believe that the Prophet Mohammed was divine

I believe what the Quran tells me. Does the Quran tell me that Prophet Mohammed (saw) was divine? If it does, please show me the ayah.

Here are some ayahs of the Quran that I choose, to show you what I believe and why I believe it.

18:110 Say : "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!"

3:144 AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about on his heels can in no wise harm God - whereas God will requite all who are grateful [to Him].

21:7 For [even] before thy time, [O Muhammad,] We never sent [as Our apostles] any but men, whom We inspired - hence, [tell the deniers of the truth,] “If you do not know this, ask the followers of earlier revelation”

17:93 or thou have a house [made] of gold, or thou ascend to heaven - but nay, we would not [even] believe in thy ascension unless thou bring down to us [from heaven] a writing which we [ourselves] could read! [109] Say thou, [O Prophet:] "Limitless in His glory is my Sustainer! Am I, then, aught but a mortal man, an apostle?"

Now, your turn to show me from the Quran what you believe in and why.

[anajmi]

Was Moullana Ali just an ordinary human being,

No, he wasn't an ordinary human being. But he wasn't divine. You and I are ordinary human beings. Even Einstein was not an ordinary human being. But he wasn't divine either.

I am not sure you clearly understand the meaning of divinity.

who purely by coincidence happened to be the cousin and son-in-law of RasulAllah, or was he something more?

Abu Jahl was the uncle of the prophet (saw). Was that purely by coincidence or was he something more?
Here is another one - Hazrat Abu Bakr was the father-in-law of the prophet (saw). Was that purely by coincidence or was he something more?

Did you know that Hazrat Umar was also the father-in-law of the prophet (saw). Was that......

Let us not draw illogical parallels to arrive at pre-determined conclusions.

[anajmi]

Matter-of-fact also depends on the extent of one's interpretation, which is rather unique for each person even if they belong to a particular orthodoxy. Their matter-of-fact in belief is no less than your matter-of-fact in designation considering they both invoke the name of Allah, supported by distinct interpretations. Disagree and call out things as you please (it's good you challenge views), but your hard truths aren't true to others (and vice versa), making neither matter-of-fact for anyone but the individuals who believe it.

All this mumbo jumbo can be easily put to rest once DB-Londoner is able to provide ayahs from the Quran about the divinity attributed to the Imam.

[Grayson]

It could, but it might not be all Quraan for him like many other people.

The prophet left two precious things (thaqalayn) for Muslims. The Quraan and the Ahl ul Bayt. This hadith we can agree upon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, you're more in tune with the Quraanic side of teachings, due to various reasons and rationalizations on your part. Not saying you don't believe in Ahl ul Bayt, but their influence in modern day is limited compared to the former. The Quran is available and has been studied extensively throughout the years, whereas the latter has lead to schism and an inability to identify any saintly figure of the Ahl ul Bayt for the laymen who didn't grow up believing in that concept.

You find practices and beliefs contradictory to the Quran and you point it out. The Quran is the absolute authority that addresses these misconceptions. And it fits your unique belief (being justified from the Quran itself) in that you can argue through it. Others don't have such a grasp on the Quran, and have adapted teachings based on their particulars. Whether it be difference on certain beliefs, or cultural influence brought on by geography, or even huge differences that have risen from leadership.

I don't argue to say you're right or wrong or that certain practices we engage in isn't wrong. Belief isn't empirical like science or math; it requires belief on the part of the believer to make it true to them. And you're well in tune with yours with the capability to back it up in argument. But hardcore believers of all faith are no different. I do not mean to insult you, but I doubt that you doubt the faith you believe in isn't pristine.

It's more about tolerance than anything. If you believe in God leave it up to him to judge. Argue your view, but don't try to falsify those of others because you're so certain of yours. And don't tell them what they aren't; particularly when they identify themselves as what they are through core shared beliefs. You may think you're calling a spade a spade (using your methods of arguing) but someone could tell you in turn there is no spade (using their methods of arguing). I doubt either of you would budge.

[Qutbi-Hero]

I see, so you don't think RasulAllah was divine.
My interpretation of a divine person is this http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/divine
In my opinion this describes all the Prophets and all the Imams. Naturally you would disagree.

As for all the other relatives of the Prophet - they were refused marriage to his only daughter, they were not raised under his hand from a child, they did not consistently protect him, they did not perform super-human feats, they were not announced in public as being his successor, they did not father his beloved grandchildren, they were not born in the Kaaba etc...

Now for the Quranic Ayats you dutifully seek, there are several, the most common quoted is of course 33:33
"It is Allah's wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification"
Not to mention the countless Hadiths uttered by RasulAllah himself.

By the way, you do realise that much of what we practice as Muslims is not detailed within the pages of the Quran.
Out of curiosity, what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj etc...

[anajmi]

I see, so you don't think RasulAllah was divine.

What I think doesn't matter. What does the Quran say? Didn't you read the ayahs that I posted?

Now let us go to your dictionary reference of the word "divine"

1. of or pertaining to a god, especially the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.

We can eliminate 3 as it is talking about divine laws. That leaves us 1, 2, 4 and 5.

We can eliminate 4 - god like. Allah says in the Quran that there is none like him.
42:11 The Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has given you mates of your own kind just as among the beasts mates - to multiply you thereby: there is nothing like unto Him, and He alone is all-hearing, all-seeing.

Hence we are left with 1, 2 and 5

We can eliminate 5 as we are talking about divine humans and not the divine/heavenly kingdom.

Now we are left with 1 and 2

We can safely eliminate 1 as it is pertaining to the supreme being which in our case is Allah alone. I doubt any shia will say that Ali is the supreme being unless he or she is a PHD is mushrik beliefs.

2 is talking about divine worship which might refer to Salaah, Zakat or Hajj.

So we see that you have no clue about whatever it is that you are saying. You say Imams are divine and then instead of giving me reference from the Quran as I am asking again and again, you are giving me irrelevant references from the English dictionary.

Now let us come to the patented shia diet food which is ayah 33:33. This interpretation has been debunked on this board so many times, I have lost count. 33:33 is referring to the wives of the prophet and not to the Imams.

Here is the full 33:33 which the shia normally refuse to quote. They will quote only half of 33:33.

33:33 And abide quietly in your homes, and do not flaunt your charms as they used to flaunt them in the old days of pagan ignorance; and be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle: for God only wants to remove from you all that might be loathsome, O you members of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you to utmost purity.

Here God is saying what the wives of the prophet have to do to be purified by Allah. In fact Allah has promised us all the same kind of purity in 5:6 simply if we were to perform wudhu.

5:6 O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your [wet] hands lightly over your head, and [wash] your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total ablution, purify yourselves. But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

I perform wudhu 5 or more times a day. Does that make me divine?

[anajmi]

Actually, I am willing to budge. Just bring me the justification from the Quran. A justification that doesn't require going through a convoluted process to arrive at the destination. The Quran says -

3:7 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

Since the Quran says that those who go after the allegorical ayahs are those whose hearts are given to swerving, it is quite clear that our faith should be fully and completely defined only by the clear ayahs. I have given you clear ayahs of the Quran. What you have given me is - go here, go there, take a part of this ayah, take a part of that hadith and then we arrive at what you believe in. That to me is not faith but a mess!!

[anajmi]

As for all the other relatives of the Prophet - they were refused marriage to his only daughter, they were not raised under his hand from a child, they did not consistently protect him, they did not perform super-human feats, they were not announced in public as being his successor, they did not father his beloved grandchildren, they were not born in the Kaaba etc...

That is mostly fairy tale mixed with a little fact. For eg. the super-human feats performed by Hazrat Ali. These are mostly fairy tales. About him being announced a successor is also a fairy tale. Being born inside the kaaba is also a fairy tale.

[anajmi]

Out of curiosity, what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj etc...

This is such a tired argument that it now seems silly. Let me give you an example.

anajmi - My father is divine because he was born when the planets were aligned in the form of a banana and that is what Islam teaches us.

sensible person - Can you show me the ayah of the Quran which says that the person born when the planets are aligned in the form of a banana is divine?

anajmi - Out of curiosity, what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj etc...

By the way, Wudhu is mentioned in ayah 5:6 that I have posted earlier.

[anajmi]

Consider what you said earlier

Shia theology is clearly justified and authenticated in the Quran.

and then you ask

Out of curiosity, what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj etc...

So which is it? Are you basing your entire here and hereafter on an incorrect interpretation of a part of ayah 33:33? and a misrepresented hadith?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Interesting, you are obviously a hardcore Anti-Shia.

The definition of divine which you so desperately dismissed amount to one pretty simple idea - one who is connected to God and does his work. The Prophets and the Imams are most certainly divine. You are welcome to believe otherwise and think they were not extraordinary and that their history is just a pack of fairy-tales.

Ayat 33:33 is deliberately misinterpreted by your kind when its intention is quite clear. There is no shortage of explanations on how the verse changes from feminine to masculine, so to the intelligent mind, does not refer to the wives of the Prophet. Still, for people like you this is irrelevant and should be discarded, in case it interferes with your happiness over the death of RasulAllah's grandson in Karbala.

Anyway, I'll ask again as you deflected the question above - what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj?

I have one more question for you too - why does an Anti-Shia join a Shia forum?

[Bohra spring]

It's more about tolerance than anything. If you believe in God leave it up to him to judge. Argue your view, but don't try to falsify those of others because you're so certain of yours. And don't tell them what they aren't; particularly when they identify themselves as what they are through core shared beliefs

This principle goes 2 ways....both sides need to tolerate each others views whether they agree or disagree

[anajmi]

There is no shortage of explanations on how the verse changes from feminine to masculine

Do you know the most basic rule of the Arabic language? It is that the masculine form is inclusive but the feminine form is not. And since, the household of the prophet would refer to the prophet and his wives, the masculine form is used. If we were to use your interpretation of the masculine form, then Hazrat Fatima, who is a female would also have to be excluded from the Ahle Bayt. Get it?

I have one more question for you too - why does an Anti-Shia join a Shia forum?

Ever heard the English saying - no use preaching to the choir?

[Qutbi-Hero]

It's more about tolerance than anything. If you believe in God leave it up to him to judge. Argue your view, but don't try to falsify those of others because you're so certain of yours. And don't tell them what they aren't; particularly when they identify themselves as what they are through core shared beliefs

This principle goes 2 ways....both sides need to tolerate each others views whether they agree or disagree

Sure, out in the real world, but not here on this forum.
Why should people who have no respect for the Ahlul Bayt be tolerated on a website dedicated to the followers of the Ahlul Bayt?
If they want to make a mockery of Shia Islam then they should expect to be disagreed with and criticised.

[Qutbi-Hero]

There is no shortage of explanations on how the verse changes from feminine to masculine

Do you know the most basic rule of the Arabic language? It is that the masculine form is inclusive but the feminine form is not. And since, the household of the prophet would refer to the prophet and his wives, the masculine form is used. If we were to use your interpretation of the masculine form, then Hazrat Fatima, who is a female would also have to be excluded from the Ahle Bayt. Get it?

Don't let the event of Mubahala cause you any frustration.

I have one more question for you too - why does an Anti-Shia join a Shia forum?

Ever heard the English saying - no use preaching to the choir?

Really, so you're here to try and convert people? I wonder why you feel the need...
You won't have much luck with me so have you had luck with anybody else here - or do they just 'tolerate' you lol?

[anajmi]

So it looks like you are ready to conclude that your faith has no basis in the Quran. If that is the case, then we will deal with the event of mubahala. I think we can close the books on 33:33 right?

You won't have much luck with me so have you had luck with anybody else here - or do they just 'tolerate' you lol?

Well, that is your loss and not mine. After having been fully proven wrong, if you continue to be adamant about your misguided faith, then that is what has been ordained for you by Allah himself. Whoever Allah chooses to go astray, no one can guide him. Allah tells the prophet (saw) that even he didn't have the power to guide people.

[anajmi]

Now as far as the event of mubahala is concerned, one thing the people neglect to mention is the basic human (or animal) nature.

If a human is asked to make mighty sacrifice what would it be? Wife or kids? Obviously the kids. His own blood is even more dearer to a human that his mate's. When Ibrahim (as) was asked to make a sacrifice, he was asked to sacrifice his son and not his wife. Sacrificing the wife is easier than sacrificing your own blood. Allah didn't choose Ismail (as) for testing Ibrahim (as) because Ismail (as) was divine. It was just because the test would be that much more difficult for Ibrahim (as).

This is the exact same sentiment reflected in the incident of the mubahala. Putting your wives lives on the line is much easier than putting on line the lives of your own blood. Hence the prophet (saw) chose his blood to make his word that much more authentic. He didn't choose Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain because they were divine!!

[Grayson]

This principle goes 2 ways....both sides need to tolerate each others views whether they agree or disagree

The 'principle' just is (there are countless amount of 'sides'), and it applies to everyone.

[Qutbi-Hero]

So it looks like you are ready to conclude that your faith has no basis in the Quran. If that is the case, then we will deal with the event of mubahala. I think we can close the books on 33:33 right?

No problem, as soon as you answer the question which I'm now asking for the third time - what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj?

You won't have much luck with me so have you had luck with anybody else here - or do they just 'tolerate' you lol?

Well, that is your loss and not mine.

If it is no loss to you then why do you feel the need to try?

After having been fully proven wrong, if you continue to be adamant about your misguided faith, then that is what has been ordained for you by Allah himself.

So you Sunnis have supposedly 'proven' the Tragedy of Karbala as being right, have you?

Whoever Allah chooses to go astray, no one can guide him. Allah tells the prophet (saw) that even he didn't have the power to guide people.

If the Shia have gone astray (apparently by the choice of Allah) and nobody can guide them - why are attempting to do so?
Are you an Arab from Saudi? Will King Abdullah pay you a handsome reward?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Now as far as the event of mubahala is concerned, one thing the people neglect to mention is the basic human (or animal) nature.

If a human is asked to make mighty sacrifice what would it be? Wife or kids? Obviously the kids. His own blood is even more dearer to a human that his mate's. When Ibrahim (as) was asked to make a sacrifice, he was asked to sacrifice his son and not his wife. Sacrificing the wife is easier than sacrificing your own blood. Allah didn't choose Ismail (as) for testing Ibrahim (as) because Ismail (as) was divine. It was just because the test would be that much more difficult for Ibrahim (as).

This is the exact same sentiment reflected in the incident of the mubahala. Putting your wives lives on the line is much easier than putting on line the lives of your own blood. Hence the prophet (saw) chose his blood to make his word that much more authentic. He didn't choose Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain because they were divine!!

This is astonishing! A Sunni actually admitting that the blood family of the Prophet are more important than his wives! Congratulations for seeing the light!

Now that you have accepted that the Ahlul Bayt are most certainly Imam Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, will you also accept them as one of the two weighty things too?

[seeker110]

Shah e shariatam Ali Peer e tariqatam Ali
haq ba Ali haqeeqatam dam hama dam Ali Ali

Imam of MY shariah is ALI and Imam of MY tariqah is ALI.... with my every breath comes ALI ALI ALI.

Saki e ba wafa manam,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 1

A humble poet, I am, Let me be your muse drink of me
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Sufi e ba safa manam,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 2

A Sufi, I am, Pure of heart
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Ashike Murtaza manam,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 3

A lover, I am, of Murtaza Ali
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Mutribe khushnava manam,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 4

My joy uncontained, I am in song
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Adam ba safa tueen,
Yusufe mah laka tueen ... 5

Adam the Pure be you,
Yusuf the Beautiful too


Khidhre rahe khuda tueen,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 6

Tis you who's Khidr's guide
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Shahe shariyatam tueen,
pire tariqotam tueen ... 7

His teacher, his inspiration
Lord, Lawgiver, Teacher, True Guide


Haq ba hakikatam tueen,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 8

Truth be, you are the Truth; the Absolute
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Ham dame sayeedul basher,
raj e shamshul qamar ... 9

Faithful Companion, in virtue incomparable
In whose company pales even the Sun, the moon


Babe shabirro ham shabbar,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 10

Oh, Father of Hassan, Hussein
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Sayeede sarware karam,
goft bato ay ibne am ... 11

Declared Muhammed, the Most Generous of generous
My cousin, the son of my uncle


Lahamak lahmi dammak dammi,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 12

My flesh is your flesh, my blood your blood
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Ayah e Innama barat,
taje la fata sarat ... 13

You are the Guardian, the Master of believers,
That the Holy Quran makes clear, Garbed, Crowned, Invincible, Unvanquished


Shamsh gulame Kambarat,
dam hame dam Ali Ali ... 14

Shams, your humble servant, your Kambar Gulam, am I
In rapture, my very being cries out: Ali Ali


Hazrat Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi(RA)

[anajmi]

This is astonishing! A Sunni actually admitting that the blood family of the Prophet are more important than his wives! Congratulations for seeing the light!

Now that you have accepted that the Ahlul Bayt are most certainly Imam Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, will you also accept them as one of the two weighty things too?

As they say, doobte ko tinke ka sahara chahiye. I said that for a man, his blood is more beloved. If you had read my post clearly it says "basic human (or animal) nature. " This isn't Islam, it is basic human or animal nature. It is like banging my head against a wall. Since I am willing to give my life for my kids, they are divine as per your idiotic logic!!

And that in short is the shia faith for you. Pick a word from here, pick a word from there and create a fairy tale.

No problem, as soon as you answer the question which I'm now asking for the third time - what Ayats do you refer to when pronouncing the Shahadah, performing Wazoo, praying Namaaz, completing Hajj?

Is Hajj mentioned in the Quran? - Yes
Is Wudhu mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (5:6)
Is Tawheed (Shahadah) mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (Surah Ikhlas and dozens of other places) The Shia shahadah which includes the name of Ali is not mentioned or referenced. The Sunnis have six different shahadah and portions of each shahadah are taken from ayahs of the Quran.
Is Namaaz (Salah) mentioned in the Quran? - Yes (dozens of times including mentioning of ruku, sujood and qiyam)
Is divinity of the Imam mentioned in the Quran? - No

If it is no loss to you then why do you feel the need to try?

Well, as Krishna said to Arjun - Karm kar, phal ki chinta mat kar.

So you Sunnis have supposedly 'proven' the Tragedy of Karbala as being right, have you?

Huh?

If the Shia have gone astray (apparently by the choice of Allah) and nobody can guide them - why are attempting to do so?
Are you an Arab from Saudi? Will King Abdullah pay you a handsome reward?

As per the Quran, the job of the messenger was to deliver the message. Conversion is in the hands of Allah and reward is with Allah. Imagine if the prophet were a shia and thought the same way? What if he had said, why should I attempt to guide those who have gone astray? Not just you, but even I would've been doomed.

[shapur]

Are you an Arab from Saudi? Will King Abdullah pay you a handsome reward?

Investigating Officer of the Scotland yard Mr.DB Londoner has yet another assignment for the sunday.
You must be emplaning for Saudi now to get on the trails of the above case. All the very best.
And yes, just to remind you of the other pending case of identity check of Muslim First. Gonna be busy today, I guess.