Intro

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#91

Unread post by truemumin » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:24 pm

Originally posted by omabharti:
Truemumin
Let me introduce myself once again, I am from India and have been USA for more than 30 years.
I do belong to Jamaat and I carry e jamaat card as well as so called Green Chitthi. I do confront local Aaamil and because I believe I live in a free country which allows me to speak my mind and question, I do ask them. Problems are whenever you ask any question regarding the life style of any members of Kothar and interestingly if you ask them simple question like "why we do not talk about Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb's mother" they told me I am trouble maker and indirectly but using politically correct terms, not to come but at the same time telling me that they are not issuing a BARAAT since they know that it can cause problems in USA.
I have always said that changes can be made by staying in the system, examples are people in Iran who brought revolution against Shah from within.
Gandhi who drove British Raj by staying within India, it takes time. It took 91 years after the killing of Managal Pandey before British Raaj was destroyed.
So truemumin, next time ask your local Aamil some simple questions like why there are more Bohras begging and living in poverty during the reigns of last two Dais then ever before. Why is is ok to give crores of rupees to people like Narendra Modi or George Bush who have worst record against Muslims. Please enlighten us with the answers from Aamil
I want to tell you one simple thing. I know many problems are there with individual khidmat guzars and some aamils and even some higher post peoples. But that does not mean that we say wrong things against Dai and ultimately question Dai's post. The problem is that when you talk about revolution your ultimate aim is to topple Dai which is wrong and my whole discussion belong to this main point. You just talk about kothars and money matters but you don't talk about religion, you don't talk about the great service to religion and to us which maula is doing. Is religion your ultimate goal or money matters? When you die your money will come with you or your religion?

Well this is wrong perception that more bohras are living in poverty in last two dais zaman. Infact bohras are more powerful and rich now, and have spread worldwide specially in Burhanuddin Maula's zaman. Many bohras are even working, or have worked, under top govt posts in the world

But basically, you don't need to judge religion by poor or rich. When peoples were poor that time also dawat was right and now also dawat is right. Otherwise it means that if community is rich you follow dai and if poor then leave dai?

I understand from my mind that giving money to politicians may involve making relations with them, again for bohras sake, but i obviously cannot comment on that because this is wisdom of maula and i am confident on my maula's wisdom. I can obviously trust maula's wisdom instead of your wisdom and you should also have trust on maula's wisdom instead of your own wisdom. By the way, that is one more logic of raza

Whatever corruption in community you want to discuss you can discuss with positive attitude but there is no way to question Dai. This is equal to kufur

jayanti
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#92

Unread post by jayanti » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:58 pm

truemin
omabhen has two face.dont need to teach her she is smater than u. ;)

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#93

Unread post by SBM » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:04 pm

Truemumin
No one has disputed the Dai and the respect for the Dai's authority. You said that yes there are people and Aamils who are corrupt and no one should blame the Current Dai but you can not do anything without his RAZA and remember "BUCK STOPS HERE". Your argument becomes hollow when you say AQUA MOULA IN HIS WISDOM DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE HE KNOWS EVERYTHING AND WHATEVER HE DOES IS RIGHT, if that is the case do you think that the corruption is being sanctioned by him since he knows everything.
At the same time let me give you quote from Holy Quran. Even Allah reminded Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) regarding his treatment of a blind man who was snubbed by prophet ( Read Surah 80 'ABBASSA")
and Nabi(pbuh) knew better, he was the smartest man ever on this planet or universe. It is not the Dai's rutba I have problem, it is the nepotism and cronies which he has surrounded himself I have problem with.

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#94

Unread post by SBM » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:06 pm

Jayanti bhen
Thank you for the compliment.
But at least truemumin is engaging in positive discussion without cursing
People can always disagree but they can be civil and that is how this thing is going till you interjected.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#95

Unread post by truemumin » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:47 pm

Originally posted by omabharti:
Truemumin
No one has disputed the Dai and the respect for the Dai's authority. You said that yes there are people and Aamils who are corrupt and no one should blame the Current Dai but you can not do anything without his RAZA and remember "BUCK STOPS HERE". Your argument becomes hollow when you say AQUA MOULA IN HIS WISDOM DOES WHAT HE DOES BECAUSE HE KNOWS EVERYTHING AND WHATEVER HE DOES IS RIGHT, if that is the case do you think that the corruption is being sanctioned by him since he knows everything.
At the same time let me give you quote from Holy Quran. Even Allah reminded Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) regarding his treatment of a blind man who was snubbed by prophet ( Read Surah 80 'ABBASSA")
and Nabi(pbuh) knew better, he was the smartest man ever on this planet or universe. It is not the Dai's rutba I have problem, it is the nepotism and cronies which he has surrounded himself I have problem with.
So why not you question rasuallah why he did removed those 3 evils from his group when he knew that they will even kill his daughter, snatch maula ali's right, give a very very big blow to religion and will indirectly kill imam hussain. Means Rasuallah (naoozubillah) was corrupt or you doubt about his wisdom? Even there were many more corrupt. Abu Sufyaan (lanat) was very big enemy and munafiq but apparently inside the mainstream. So you will question rasuallah about that? Definately maslehat or hikmat hoti hai which if we don't understand then it does not mean we just start critisizing Dai. You should understand that how come Dai explain his hikmat or maslehat to each one of us. You should trust Dai like you trust Rasuallah, maula Ali and other Imams / Dai because Dai is representative if imam
For example: If you are very young age, your mother slaps you for not eating or not doing school lesson, or she does not allow you to watch TV for long, you will feel that your mother is very zaalim. But thats not true actually. She is your true khairkhuvah but you cannot underdstand. Same example you can take for Dai and you

One more thing i like to point out. Better don't interpret Quran by yourself. Quran has very deep meanings. Thats why it is not good to read translations of Quran. Maula Ali said that if he just starts explaining letter "bay" (arabic letter) the whole night will pass and still maybe the explanation will not finish. Thats why allah subhanahu sent rasuallah to explain quran and in every zaman there is imam or dai to explain quran/religion otherwise peoples don't have that power and knowledge to understand and interpret Quran or religion by themselves

If you do major things without raza then there are chances that you do wrong things because everybody do not have that much wisdom or religious knowledge. Peoples do take raza for small small things also which is their love and faith on maula. In kerbela all ashaab knew that they have to go one by one and die but still everybody were taking raza and then go. Why? This is to show raza's importance and to show that nobody's wisdom is greater then zaman na saheb. Imagine if Imam Zainul Abedin had gone to fight without taking raza what would happen

Above in your post on one hand you say that "no one has disputed the Dai and the respect for the Dai's authority" but at the same time your postings seems to disrepect the dai. So please clarify your position first

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#96

Unread post by SBM » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:10 pm

I will let Br. Porus and Br. Hussain explain you the meaning of Quran.
Believe me you do not need RAZA to read and understand Quran.
It seems that you already have a narrow tunnel vision when in every post you keeping on talking about 3 evils. One of them was Rasullah's father in law and thus became part of Nabis (pbuh) extended family.
It is ok for you to shake hands and kiss the *** of Bal Thakrey and Narendra Modi(who are KAFIR)and hell bent on destroying Muslims but you do not mince words on Caliphs because of succession problems.
I like to see Kothari Aamil,Shezhadas and Syedna coming out with same passion of Laanat on Thackrey
and Narendra Modi as he does on 3 Khalifas.
and do not tell me he has to honor those two murders because he has to compromise with them to buy peace and safety. IMAM HUSSAIN DID NOT COMPROMISE HIS PRINCIPALS AND GAVE HIS LIFE AND SCARIFIED HIS FAMILY

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#97

Unread post by truemumin » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:25 pm

Originally posted by omabharti:
I will let Br. Porus and Br. Hussain explain you the meaning of Quran.
Believe me you do not need RAZA to read and understand Quran.
It seems that you already have a narrow tunnel vision when in every post you keeping on talking about 3 evils. One of them was Rasullah's father in law and thus became part of Nabis (pbuh) extended family.
It is ok for you to shake hands and kiss the *** of Bal Thakrey and Narendra Modi(who are KAFIR)and hell bent on destroying Muslims but you do not mince words on Caliphs because of succession problems.
I like to see Kothari Aamil,Shezhadas and Syedna coming out with same passion of Laanat on Thackrey
and Narendra Modi as he does on 3 Khalifas.
and do not tell me he has to honor those two murders because he has to compromise with them to buy peace and safety. IMAM HUSSAIN DID NOT COMPROMISE HIS PRINCIPALS AND GAVE HIS LIFE AND SCARIFIED HIS FAMILY
And you seem to have a very big tunnel that you are always singing Thackrey and Modi. Aqa Maula do not need to act on your wisdom. You need to act on his wisdom
For evil 1 you accept that he was rasuallah father in law and became part of his extended family and you don't have any problem with that but you keep on singing about kothars and aamils. Not a word of appreciation on Maula's religious guidance to bohras

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#98

Unread post by makberi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:50 am

truemumin i believe in the post of the Dai...but obviously we disagree on how we interpret it....i believe the Dai only represents Imam, he is not masoom, AND HE IS NOT OWNER OF MY SOUL. I shall not do Sajdah to him and honestly as a part of the younger generation dont find anythin inspiring in him as a leader. Do i have FAITH in the DAI.....no!!!!...i only have FAITH in Allah.....the Dai is only a human being.....he is only a caretaker in the absence of the Imam

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#99

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:17 am

Originally posted by makberi:
truemumin i believe in the post of the Dai...but obviously we disagree on how we interpret it....i believe the Dai only represents Imam, he is not masoom, AND HE IS NOT OWNER OF MY SOUL. I shall not do Sajdah to him and honestly as a part of the younger generation dont find anythin inspiring in him as a leader. Do i have FAITH in the DAI.....no!!!!...i only have FAITH in Allah.....the Dai is only a human being.....he is only a caretaker in the absence of the Imam
Why you set your target on imam. Why not you set target on Rasuallah. So this is like same thing that you have faith in Rasuallah but not on Maula Ali. Yes Dai is the master of your soul in actual terms and sajdah is wajib which shows his maqaam. If you accept that Dai is the representative of imam then you trust imam that he would not select anybody which is not up to the mark. If you don't accept Dai and questions what he does means indirectly you don't accept Imam also

So better learn the religion and then say such things

Some non bohra poet says in his poem that rasuallah is our kibla and kaaba. he even does not know the meaning but so rightly he said. So what do you do with kibla and kaaba everyday? Sajda...... i believe

By the way, the younger generation is more attached to Aqa Maula and religion compared to older generation because they are more educated and even more religiously educated

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#100

Unread post by makberi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:36 am

truemumin,
i few posts ago u used the argument that thre was corruption during the Rasullulahs time that doesnt mean the Prophet is to be blamed fo r it. so there cud be corruption in the kothar and the Imam is well aware, but there must be Hikmat as to y he hasnt interfered to end this corruption....maybe this is Allahs way for the Bohras to realise and stand up for themselves....

so it isnt wrong to question the Dai...jus the way it wasnt wrong to question Yazid or Muawiya.....The Prophet spposdly knew of wat is to happen...yet he dint kill Abu Sufyan and his family when he conquered Makkah....y.....he knew his sons wud lead the Muslim Ummah astray....thre must be Hikmat in it too.....

what is imp is to undersstand that the Dai is only representing the Imam....He is NOT THE IMAM....jus an ordinary human being

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#101

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:41 am

Originally posted by makberi:
truemumin,
i few posts ago u used the argument that thre was corruption during the Rasullulahs time that doesnt mean the Prophet is to be blamed fo r it. so there cud be corruption in the kothar and the Imam is well aware, but there must be Hikmat as to y he hasnt interfered to end this corruption....maybe this is Allahs way for the Bohras to realise and stand up for themselves....

so it isnt wrong to question the Dai...jus the way it wasnt wrong to question Yazid or Muawiya.....The Prophet spposdly knew of wat is to happen...yet he dint kill Abu Sufyan and his family when he conquered Makkah....y.....he knew his sons wud lead the Muslim Ummah astray....thre must be Hikmat in it too.....

what is imp is to undersstand that the Dai is only representing the Imam....He is NOT THE IMAM....jus an ordinary human being
Imam does not interfere and you think you have more wisdom then imam to queston Dai? You talk about hikmat of rasuallah and imams / Dai but still you think that you know more hikmat

Dai is not an ordinary human being. Dai is imam's rep and he is also ruhaani shaksiat. Dai is masoom and mamlook-e-aal-e-mohammad. By the way why you think imam is ruhaani shaksiat? any reasons? And do you doubt about the wisdom of aal-e-mohammad that they will transfer all their ilm to somebody incompetent?

Also by the way, you actually mean that imam made mistake in choosing his rep, means you doubt about imam's wisdom. My dear, better learn religion and you will know the meanings. You dont even know how big kufur you are doing by saying above things. You dont know the maqaam of imam and Dai. You dont even know the maqaam of Rasuallah. In mairaj Rasuallah went upto Arsh-e-khudah. can't you understand the maqaam of rasuallah and you question wisdom of these ruhaani peoples? My dear, this is allah's ehsaan that these ruhaani peoples wants to take you to right path but you peoples do kufur

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#102

Unread post by makberi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:50 am

it is part of dawoodi bohra faith to believe in the Imam to be masoom......i dint say that the Prophet or the present day Imam made mistakes....its only Hikmat ....the Prophet dint make a mistake by leaving Abu Sufyan's family alive....its Hikmat.....only Allah understand y the world is the way it is.....Ismailis believe that he has shared some of this knowledge with enlightened ppl Like the Prophet.....but nowhere is it mentioned that the Dai is also an enlightened soul.....as a matter of fact Imam Mahdi actually killed one of his dais for treachery as he went against him.....

u have only heard of the Dai's ruhaani status from the syedna himself......as u have FAITH in him u believe him....i dont

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#103

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:52 am

Originally posted by makberi:
u have only heard of the Dai's ruhaani status from the syedna himself......as u have FAITH in him u believe him....i dont
Then you dont need to be called bohra when you don't accept Dai. No need doudle standards

Sattar na zamaan na Dai no shaan alag chay. You need to understand that imam cannot give all his powers to somebody who is not prefect in religion and who is incompetent. We are talking about imam and not an ordinary king

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#104

Unread post by makberi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:10 am

truemumin, u have faith in dai ....i have faith in Allah....u dont have to consider me a bohri....i believe in Allah n thts enough for me

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#105

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:22 am

Originally posted by makberi:
truemumin, u have faith in dai ....i have faith in Allah....u dont have to consider me a bohri....i believe in Allah n thts enough for me
So in one simple word you are a wahabi :)

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#106

Unread post by makberi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:35 am

:) to be honest with u my friend i have heard a lot of things in my life....i have neva heard that!!!!!...lol.......if it pleases u to think that way......u can....lol

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#107

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:17 pm

Truemumin
So any one who denies Dai is Wahabi,
In that case Ithna Ashri(Jafferia) the largest Shia population are Wahabi and so are the Agha Khani
This will really make Br. Muslim First and Anjami proud that now 99.95% of Muslim world is WAHABI according to Truemumin
IT SEEMS LIKE FOR SOME ON THIS BOARD,CALLING EVERYBODY WAHABI IF YOU CAN ENGAGE IN CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION
IF BOHRAS HAVE SOME MUCH PROBLEMS WITH WAHABI AND OTHER SECTS OF ISLAM, WHY ARE THEY STILL STAYING IN THOSE COUNTRIES TO MAKE MONEY.IT IS OK TO TAKE THEIR MONEY THIS IS WHAT WE CALL UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE,(JIS THALI MAIN KHANA US MAIN HI CHAID KARNA)

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#108

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:00 pm

I am not calling him wahabi because he negates Dai. I am calling him wahabi because of his faith style which is similar to wahabi.
By the way (JIS THALI MAIN KHANA US MAIN HI CHAID KARNA) suits you well because you come into jamaat, have an ecard and still curses jamaat and Dai. And one more thing. In recent post you showed your anger on George Bush. So why are you living and earning in US?

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#109

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:17 pm

Because USA is a free country and I did not vote for him and even if I did, I enjoy full constitutional rights to voice my opinions against him when he does some thing wrong. I do not need his RAZA to express my response. I do not need to dance at his tunes.
This really shows how enslaved you are and also ignorant of democratic procedure President Bush does not pay my salary and in free democratic societies people are free to criticize the president and all the elected officials which some thing you are not aware of.PLEASE GO AND UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION

jayanti
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#110

Unread post by jayanti » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:28 pm

hahaha
Because USA is a free country and I did not vote for him and even if I did,
oma, might be illegai immigrant that y s/he cannot vote ;) .
who tell u to pay zakat or any due during month of ramzan nobody is forcing u to pay.if u dont like it dont pay.and if u dont like community dont enroll in it stay away frm it.its you oma coming to community,community is not coming to you.my free advice pls cut youre jamaat card.
thanks

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#111

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:29 pm

[Please don't twist what you said and dont take my question to another direction. You said President Bush is one of the biggest enemy of muslims and you recommended kothars to wage a war of anger against him. But at the same time you agree to live there because of so called freedom etc. but obviously because you are earning well there. SO BASICALLY FOR PERSONAL GAINS YOU ARE LIVING THERE. And when kothars try to keep good relations with Bush or Thackery or Modi for Bohras well being you have problem in that. What a double standard you have

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#112

Unread post by SBM » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 pm

Except when they pay Bal Thackrey and Modi it is the community's money and not their personal wealth.
I would have no problem if they keep good relations with elected officals but to bribe is the differnet story......

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#113

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:24 am

How about your tax money being used by US govt for helping Israel and waging war against muslims?

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#114

Unread post by makberi » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:30 am

truemumin , i wud advise to study Islam...n trust me there is a lot one needs to know beyond the vaaz u listen.....all ur arguments are based on vaaz and bayans...

u thank the syedna's dua for every little thing u do....but ignore Allah's biggest nemat to mankind...the human mind....ur ability to think and make judgements...i wud advise u to use them objectively......

btw i had quite a laugh with my friends when i told them somebody called me a wahbbi!!!!..... ;)

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#115

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:15 am

If mankind is mature enough to think for religion whats the need of all nabi, imam, and Dai etc. ? Allah would then allow everybody to think by themselves and act

Religion reading needs raza, why, because the books you read, maybe all are not correct and authenticated. Or maybe you are not grasping the meaing correctly. Even you cannot understand Quran by yourself even if you know arabic well

You can take example as if you are a student but you need teacher to teach you otherwise you cannot understand. And you need Toefl to study in USA. You need give other exams to study in certain grade or level institutes because they want to teach only those students who have the ability to learn that particular standard thing

See, Allah sent his reps to the world. Your soul is for allah. So automatically it proves that your soul should be for allah's rep. And present Dai is allah's rep in absence of imam. And mind you we are talking about allah's rep. Don't compare it with other peoples in the world. Allah's everything is very high shaan and prefect. so obviously his rep also must have high shaan. You must try to understand this very basic point

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#116

Unread post by makberi » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:38 am

truemumin, Allah has amazing ways of working....He cud teach u something thru ur friend, a beggar walking on the street, or the DAI or Imam....u have to use ur judgement to understand it and choose ur path accordingly...u have choosen to leave ur mind to the Dai...but ultimately its ur decision.....n Allah shall question everyone in the end for the path they choose.....

btw no one REPRESENTS Allah.....the Prophet , the Imam and the Dai is only here to spread His Message..there can be no substitutes to Allah....His being is too great to be "represented" by anyone.....though Prophet and Imam are people of higher understanding, they cannot equal Allah...He is One and Alone....thus doesnt need to be "represented"

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#117

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:59 am

Then why allah sent Nabis and imams etc. Why not he just sent quran to every house and sent beggers or such peoples to explain, or peoples teach each other by themselves? Do you have any evidence in the history that any religion of allah is spread by itself without nabi? yes allah gave you wisdom to think so think this first. Adam was first nabi and then mankind started. So allah knows that peoples cannot understand religion by themselves

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#118

Unread post by makberi » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:35 am

Apart from nabis....Allah has also sent many pretenders.....who have misguided ppl....how do u diffrentiate between the 2.....u use ur judgement.....in the end everyone has to make a choice on their own....n Allah shall judge everyone on the final day.....

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Intro

#119

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:57 am

ok. so discussion finished. you make your own judgement and i make ours. By the way pretenders are not sent by allah. Pretenders pretends by themselves

Also on one hand you call imam as barhaqq and then you doubt about his selection. You are a confused chap. Hope someday you will come to right track

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Intro

#120

Unread post by makberi » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:06 am

nothing happens by itself......its all Allah's doing