Please refer me to your post that addresses those questions. Remember this is the information highway...record of events...no spin.I have answered all the questions that the moron has raised
Not the strongest forum for you guys....
seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Not the strongest forum for you guys....
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Please site the credibility and your experience with the following sources:How do I know it is the truth if I do not care about the source?
news-journalonline
Tom Perry
Micheal McDonough
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Average Moron,
You better go see that doctor on reverse mental growth syndrome. It is becoming more and more pronounced with every post
Credibility and experience with the sources you mentioned - Excellent
Posts that address the questions you raised - all over this board, too many, start reading and understanding, but first go see the doctor I mentioned.
You better go see that doctor on reverse mental growth syndrome. It is becoming more and more pronounced with every post
Credibility and experience with the sources you mentioned - Excellent
Posts that address the questions you raised - all over this board, too many, start reading and understanding, but first go see the doctor I mentioned.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Just one other thing, which may be another reason why you should go see the doctor, did you read Mal's reply? Did you understand what he wrote? He agreed with me too, but you have too small a brain to understand 
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Anajmi
Agreed about Truth and its source. You have to have the Trust in the Source and even Faith to accept the Truth. Let me tell you that is Religious Divide. At times coz of this Divide we fail to accept and understand the Truth, right..??!! We want to hear and learn from OUR source and discount others. We should not do so. We should be open-minded and ready to learn (or else we all be what Jews, till now or Idol Worshipers or whatever). Try to interpret based on logic and rationale and considering the ground realities of the day and age.
What I mean is that – accept the Answers from where ever they are coming. Lets say you want to understand the Law of Gravity. Now whosoever explains you that, he or she may be from any part of world and of any religion but if able to explain what that Law is and you understand that, and it confirms what others say and explain, then accept it. This was in light of your request that ‘I’ answer your questions though AB answered and they were OK. Had he been wrong I would have argued. If you have quest, you should even go to China and that was Prophet (PBUH) 1400 years ago..!!
Average Bohra
Waiting for your input too
And to Anajmi and AB
Take it easy……!!!!!! I like both of you debating and discussing, keep up the good work though.
Khan
We are waiting for your analysis based on ur 18 years of stay.
Agreed about Truth and its source. You have to have the Trust in the Source and even Faith to accept the Truth. Let me tell you that is Religious Divide. At times coz of this Divide we fail to accept and understand the Truth, right..??!! We want to hear and learn from OUR source and discount others. We should not do so. We should be open-minded and ready to learn (or else we all be what Jews, till now or Idol Worshipers or whatever). Try to interpret based on logic and rationale and considering the ground realities of the day and age.
What I mean is that – accept the Answers from where ever they are coming. Lets say you want to understand the Law of Gravity. Now whosoever explains you that, he or she may be from any part of world and of any religion but if able to explain what that Law is and you understand that, and it confirms what others say and explain, then accept it. This was in light of your request that ‘I’ answer your questions though AB answered and they were OK. Had he been wrong I would have argued. If you have quest, you should even go to China and that was Prophet (PBUH) 1400 years ago..!!
Average Bohra
Waiting for your input too
And to Anajmi and AB
Take it easy……!!!!!! I like both of you debating and discussing, keep up the good work though.
Khan
We are waiting for your analysis based on ur 18 years of stay.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Waiting for your input too
Mal,
If you research my posts you will discover that I have been trying. However, ignorance and intolerance combined with a closed mind is a dangerous combination, as we have undoubtedly discovered in current real world events, but Islam will not embrace civilization as long as we have the Anajmis of the world. This is why I won't give up anytime soon. The scary thing is that he appears to take his {mis}beliefs very seriously.
We can only try....but the fact that the Quran like all other religious documents of the time were only relevant to the times and they must be taken in context to the times they were written in (and not literally) has been lost in most Islamic sects (exagerrated by the Wahabis).
That mentality will take generations to change...if there is a will, which is non-existent currently.
Mal,
If you research my posts you will discover that I have been trying. However, ignorance and intolerance combined with a closed mind is a dangerous combination, as we have undoubtedly discovered in current real world events, but Islam will not embrace civilization as long as we have the Anajmis of the world. This is why I won't give up anytime soon. The scary thing is that he appears to take his {mis}beliefs very seriously.
We can only try....but the fact that the Quran like all other religious documents of the time were only relevant to the times and they must be taken in context to the times they were written in (and not literally) has been lost in most Islamic sects (exagerrated by the Wahabis).
That mentality will take generations to change...if there is a will, which is non-existent currently.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Average Bohra,
I have been reading your posts. I fully agree with you.
All religions and books are to be read and understood, interpreted in the light of time and age and keeping in mind the ground realities. The things which were applicable say 1200 years ago or 800 or 500 are not applicable today, may be - so we have always to update.... and as i said Religion is Great Divide .... in todays world and should be eliminted or decreased to some extend - by logic and rationale.
Anajami may have his beliefs and we have to respect them, accept him but keep on talking to him .... and u have very rightly said, u will not give up, great .... we have to keep talking debating and discussing and if we feel people like Anajami are wrong, we have to educate them.
Anajami
And in the same way, if u feel we are worng and need to learn and know more, plz. enlighten us. We want knowledge and are open to learn and accept.
I have been reading your posts. I fully agree with you.
All religions and books are to be read and understood, interpreted in the light of time and age and keeping in mind the ground realities. The things which were applicable say 1200 years ago or 800 or 500 are not applicable today, may be - so we have always to update.... and as i said Religion is Great Divide .... in todays world and should be eliminted or decreased to some extend - by logic and rationale.
Anajami may have his beliefs and we have to respect them, accept him but keep on talking to him .... and u have very rightly said, u will not give up, great .... we have to keep talking debating and discussing and if we feel people like Anajami are wrong, we have to educate them.
Anajami
And in the same way, if u feel we are worng and need to learn and know more, plz. enlighten us. We want knowledge and are open to learn and accept.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Average Moron,
Quran is a revelation from Allah, and if you think that you understand the quran better than Allah himself having figured out that it is irrelevent in these times, well, then I can only say to you as they say in bohras "Jahannum Mubarak"
And what civilization are you talking about the Muslims embracing, the one practised by the Americans or the one practised by the Israelis
Tell you what, I hope and pray to Allah that I and none of the true muslims destined for heaven become like one of you.
That is a lot of bull that I have heard from a lot of morons like you.We can only try....but the fact that the Quran like all other religious documents of the time were only relevant to the times and they must be taken in context to the times they were written in (and not literally) has been lost in most Islamic sects (exagerrated by the Wahabis).
Quran is a revelation from Allah, and if you think that you understand the quran better than Allah himself having figured out that it is irrelevent in these times, well, then I can only say to you as they say in bohras "Jahannum Mubarak"
And what civilization are you talking about the Muslims embracing, the one practised by the Americans or the one practised by the Israelis
Tell you what, I hope and pray to Allah that I and none of the true muslims destined for heaven become like one of you.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Mal,
Tell you what, since you and average bohras seem to be such scholars on the quran and its relevance being time dependent, why don't you give me an ayah of the quran which is no longer relevant as the times have changed and we can start a discussion.
Tell you what, since you and average bohras seem to be such scholars on the quran and its relevance being time dependent, why don't you give me an ayah of the quran which is no longer relevant as the times have changed and we can start a discussion.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Mal,
As far as the sources go, even Bush and Cheney are my sources, however I believe exactly the opposite of what they say!!
As far as the sources go, even Bush and Cheney are my sources, however I believe exactly the opposite of what they say!!
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Anajmi,
I NEVER said anything about Quran or its relevance. Quran for EVER...!!!! what i meant was some traditions, customs and so of the things which Muslims keep on doing till today, those may have become irrelevant, like folding the pants before Namaz (done in Saudia) and things like that, and those which have no religious significance. Sydena these days have asked to do Matam after every Farz and at mosques we are skipping Sunat for Tawasal Namaz for Dai and his dad...!!!! what is all this... you change what u are NOT suppose to and do not what u can do.... like women working and that stuff. AND I am NO scholar on Quran ....!!!
We should go with time and consider the age too, otherwise, you will walk to Makkah for Haj ...!!!! think on those terms. I donot say anything about BASIC Islam, which is simple, easy to follow and full of Barkat and Rehmat.
I NEVER said anything about Quran or its relevance. Quran for EVER...!!!! what i meant was some traditions, customs and so of the things which Muslims keep on doing till today, those may have become irrelevant, like folding the pants before Namaz (done in Saudia) and things like that, and those which have no religious significance. Sydena these days have asked to do Matam after every Farz and at mosques we are skipping Sunat for Tawasal Namaz for Dai and his dad...!!!! what is all this... you change what u are NOT suppose to and do not what u can do.... like women working and that stuff. AND I am NO scholar on Quran ....!!!
We should go with time and consider the age too, otherwise, you will walk to Makkah for Haj ...!!!! think on those terms. I donot say anything about BASIC Islam, which is simple, easy to follow and full of Barkat and Rehmat.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
and Anajmi,
Who knew 1200 years ago that we will FLY, but Quran has references and far others for ages to come, what Quran said 500 years back may not have made snese then and may not have been intrepreted, but today it makes all the sense and we can appreciate that.. right. SO i mean to say that 'everything should be seen in the light and context of age and ground realities'. We should not take the things 'literally' as Quran was for old days, is for today and for tomorrow. Hope I have made myself clear.
Who knew 1200 years ago that we will FLY, but Quran has references and far others for ages to come, what Quran said 500 years back may not have made snese then and may not have been intrepreted, but today it makes all the sense and we can appreciate that.. right. SO i mean to say that 'everything should be seen in the light and context of age and ground realities'. We should not take the things 'literally' as Quran was for old days, is for today and for tomorrow. Hope I have made myself clear.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
I am sorry if I have misunderstood you. However it would be best for us to explain our positions on the quran by taking a quranic ayah into context that has been misunderstood in these times.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Agreed.
But here I donot intend to go that deep into discussions as I am no authority on Quran and its interpretation.
What we have been debating is the works of current Bohra Dai and his (mis)deed .... and of his henchmen and family. What we say is that he is changing so many things which are not Islam even for a layman. They do not explain what real Islam is - they just self-praise and keep on saying and harping on Syedna's EHSANATs..!!! what ehsanats, i fail to understand. Also, listen to their sermons in Moharram, they make it so boring...!!!! and full of flaws that one starts doubting the whole process. They want us to pay and pay and pay and obey and obey and obey. There are lot of things which need to be changed .... Sajda, folding hands to every petty bhai sahib etc etc. He is saying somethings which are good, for eg. regarding interest etc. but good things are very very few. Coming to Saudia we will wait for Khan's analysis since he has been there for 18 years and still is there.
But here I donot intend to go that deep into discussions as I am no authority on Quran and its interpretation.
What we have been debating is the works of current Bohra Dai and his (mis)deed .... and of his henchmen and family. What we say is that he is changing so many things which are not Islam even for a layman. They do not explain what real Islam is - they just self-praise and keep on saying and harping on Syedna's EHSANATs..!!! what ehsanats, i fail to understand. Also, listen to their sermons in Moharram, they make it so boring...!!!! and full of flaws that one starts doubting the whole process. They want us to pay and pay and pay and obey and obey and obey. There are lot of things which need to be changed .... Sajda, folding hands to every petty bhai sahib etc etc. He is saying somethings which are good, for eg. regarding interest etc. but good things are very very few. Coming to Saudia we will wait for Khan's analysis since he has been there for 18 years and still is there.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Mal,
There was a time when I used to debate the deeds of the dai and bohra clergy and the bohra practices, but I have come to realize that in the big picture, the dai, the bohras, they don't matter. For the bohras, the quran is another book that needs to be kissed. When have you heard the bohras praying for the muslims of the world? for the palestinians, for the Iraqis or for that matter the shias of Iran?
I no longer give a crap about what the dai does or does not do. There are more important things to worry about.
There was a time when I used to debate the deeds of the dai and bohra clergy and the bohra practices, but I have come to realize that in the big picture, the dai, the bohras, they don't matter. For the bohras, the quran is another book that needs to be kissed. When have you heard the bohras praying for the muslims of the world? for the palestinians, for the Iraqis or for that matter the shias of Iran?
I no longer give a crap about what the dai does or does not do. There are more important things to worry about.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
And as far as the quran and its interpretation goes, don't you think we need to understand at least a little bit about what's in the book before passing a judgment that the quran is irrelevant in these time?
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Mal,
I was going through your posts and I came across this
Here are a few hadiths from the prophet Mohammed. (and according to me they are relevant today and will be relevant till the day of judgment, even if for nothing else then for the fact that they are from the prophet saw)
Hadith - Al-Muwatta 48.12, Similar narration in Abu Dawood #4082
Yahya related to me from Malik from al Ala ibn Abd ar-Rahman that his father said, "I asked Abu Said al-Khudri about the lower garment. He said that he would inform me with knowledge and that he had heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'The lower garment of the mumin should reach to the middle of his calves. There is no harm in what is between that and the ankles. What is lower than that is in the Fire. What is lower than that is in the Fire. On the Day of Rising, Allah will not look at a person who trails his lower garment in arrogance.' "
Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.678, Narrated Abu Huraira, r.a.
The Prophet (saaws) said, "The part of an Izar which hangs below the ankles is in the Fire."
Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuJurayy Jabir ibn Salim al-Hujaymi
The Prophet saaws said, "Have your lower garment halfway down your shin; if you cannot do it, have it up to the ankles. Beware of trailing the lower garment, for it is conceit and Allah does not like conceit."
Folding up the hem because your garment is too long, is forbidden. Pull the trousers upwards, instead. (hint: hard to do if your pants are too tight to start with!)
Hadith - Sahih Muslim #5200, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar, r.a.
I happened to pass before Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) with my lower garment trailing (upon the ground). He said: Abdullah, tug up your lower garment. I tugged it up, and he again said: Tug it still further, and I tugged it still further and I went on tugging it afterward, whereupon some of the people said: To what extent? Thereupon he said: To the middle of the shanks*.
*The part of the leg between the knee and ankle.
Said Ibn 'Abbas, "The Prophet ordered us to prostrate on seven bodily parts and not to fold back the hair or clothing: the forehead, the hands, the knees and the feet." In another wording, the Prophet said, "I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bodily parts: the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, the hands, the knees and the ends of the feet." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) In another narration, he said, "I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bodily parts and not to fold back the hair or clothing: the forehead, the nose, the hands, the knees and the feet." (Related by Muslim and an-Nasa'i.)
So something that was practiced by the prophet should never go out of style.
I was going through your posts and I came across this
Did you ask somebody why they did this?those may have become irrelevant, like folding the pants before Namaz (done in Saudia) and things like that, and those which have no religious significance
Here are a few hadiths from the prophet Mohammed. (and according to me they are relevant today and will be relevant till the day of judgment, even if for nothing else then for the fact that they are from the prophet saw)
Hadith - Al-Muwatta 48.12, Similar narration in Abu Dawood #4082
Yahya related to me from Malik from al Ala ibn Abd ar-Rahman that his father said, "I asked Abu Said al-Khudri about the lower garment. He said that he would inform me with knowledge and that he had heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'The lower garment of the mumin should reach to the middle of his calves. There is no harm in what is between that and the ankles. What is lower than that is in the Fire. What is lower than that is in the Fire. On the Day of Rising, Allah will not look at a person who trails his lower garment in arrogance.' "
Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 7.678, Narrated Abu Huraira, r.a.
The Prophet (saaws) said, "The part of an Izar which hangs below the ankles is in the Fire."
Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Narrated AbuJurayy Jabir ibn Salim al-Hujaymi
The Prophet saaws said, "Have your lower garment halfway down your shin; if you cannot do it, have it up to the ankles. Beware of trailing the lower garment, for it is conceit and Allah does not like conceit."
Folding up the hem because your garment is too long, is forbidden. Pull the trousers upwards, instead. (hint: hard to do if your pants are too tight to start with!)
Hadith - Sahih Muslim #5200, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar, r.a.
I happened to pass before Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) with my lower garment trailing (upon the ground). He said: Abdullah, tug up your lower garment. I tugged it up, and he again said: Tug it still further, and I tugged it still further and I went on tugging it afterward, whereupon some of the people said: To what extent? Thereupon he said: To the middle of the shanks*.
*The part of the leg between the knee and ankle.
Said Ibn 'Abbas, "The Prophet ordered us to prostrate on seven bodily parts and not to fold back the hair or clothing: the forehead, the hands, the knees and the feet." In another wording, the Prophet said, "I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bodily parts: the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, the hands, the knees and the ends of the feet." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) In another narration, he said, "I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bodily parts and not to fold back the hair or clothing: the forehead, the nose, the hands, the knees and the feet." (Related by Muslim and an-Nasa'i.)
So something that was practiced by the prophet should never go out of style.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Anajmi
Agreed. Let me have some time to read it more thoroughly.
As I said I want to learn, so I will be asking and I am sure you will reply. Appreciate that.
As for Dai and all that, I tend to agree with you but there are hundreds out who care and for them it matters, so we have to convince them too - that it DOES NOT matter at all and for that we will have to debate and find out ways. But I wholly agree for Bohras, everything revolves round Dai.....
Wa'salam
Agreed. Let me have some time to read it more thoroughly.
As I said I want to learn, so I will be asking and I am sure you will reply. Appreciate that.
As for Dai and all that, I tend to agree with you but there are hundreds out who care and for them it matters, so we have to convince them too - that it DOES NOT matter at all and for that we will have to debate and find out ways. But I wholly agree for Bohras, everything revolves round Dai.....
Wa'salam