Why do Ismailies take pride in calling themselves muslim

[znanwalla]

".....Can a direct relationship be established with God, without any Intercessor...."

What you are saying contradicts the Quran as there are verses in the Quran which indicate the reality of the principle of Intercession and the Quran elucidates both the principle and its dependance on the permission and good pleasure of God.

"...and they cannot intercede except for him whom HE accepteth.." (Sura al Anbiya)

" There is no intercessor save by HIS permission..." (Sura Yunus)

The principle is also mentioned in many of the Prophet's sayings:

"My Intercession is especially for the perpetrators of major sins in my community"

" I have received five gifts from God (one of which) is that of Intercession which I have in store for my community. My Intercession is for those who have not associated any partners with God".

Intercession is to be seen as a ray of hope, in whose light forgiveness can be sought.

A glance at the pages of history reveals that even companions of the prophet (peace be on him) used to ask him in their own lifetime, for his intercession and Trimidhi relates from Anas b Malik: .."I asked the Prophet to intercede for me on the Day of Judgment. He said:.." I shall do so"!...so I asked him, "where will I find you?"...he replied: "By the side of the sirat".

The sons of Jacob, after the disclosure of their wicked acts, asked their father to implore God's forgiveness of them. Jacob accepted their petition and promised to do so at the appointed time.."

" And if when they had wronged themselves they had but come unto thee and asked for forgiveness of God and the Messenger had sought forgiveness for them, they would have found God Forgiving, Merciful.." (Sura al Nisa)

"And when it is said unto them: Come ! The Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you, they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful..." (Sura al Munafiqun) - it is thus clear that refusing to seek any such intercession is the sign of a hypocrisy.

"O ye who believe, be mindful of your duty to God and seek the means "al-wasila" of APPROACHING HIM and strive in HIS way, in order that ye may succeed..."

Was the bowing down of the angels before Adam or the prostration of the sons of Jacob before Joseph considered shirk? No ! it wasn't !

So what brand of Islam do you follow? You even contest the Quran itself? The kaffiroon also did not believe the Holy Prophet ! So what you are saying is merely good as an opinion of yours, but frankly you have no grounding or basis for the arguments you have given !

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[znanwalla]

".......We also realize that nothing comes into being on its own.."

Any continuous acts or operation of the tools of creation cannot be separated from any initial act of creation and so if the creator of man and the universe is just one, the governance is not questionable as there exists a link between creation and governance and so nobody has the right to judge what God has commanded and 'whoso judgeth not according to that which God hath revealed, such are the disbelievers.." (Sura al Ma'ida)...

God just says : "BE" and it becomes and HE is not restricted in time or space either....

He cast "words" into Mary (Mariam) and there was an "immaculate" conception which baffles science and others.....so I would say if God so wishes, anything can happen, be created or pro create......

HE is the LIGHT of the Heavens and the Earth and "unto God belongs the east and the west wherever ye turn, you will see HIS face...! maybe you can help members understand what this implies?..."

" Truly those who swear allegiance unto thee (o ! Muhamad), swear allegiance only unto God. The HAND of God is above their hands..." (Sura al fath)....so was the Prophet not the "Yadulahi" of his time? and so now has God deprived mankind of this mercy, after the Prophet ? why would God be so unjust? does God not say ..
" verily God wrongeth not mankind in anything.." (Sura Yunus)..."Verily God wrongeth not even the weight of an atom..." (Sura al Nisa)

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[znanwalla]

"The holy Prophet said: "To look at the face of Ali is worship." (al-Mustadrak, III, 152-153; Sharh, IX, 381; Kawkab, p. 161).

This is why the true lovers yearn for the sacred vision of the Ali of the time with heart and soul." [Source: Tawil 621: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Even you guys are daily facing the birthplace ( a holy shrine) of Ali whilst praying ! Ali was the only one born inside the Kaaba !

An eminent Sunni scholar N.Maulvi Lutfullah Nishapuri (d 180 AH) says..." The circumambulation of the kaaba has been made obligatory for all muslims because this is the birthplace of Ali Ibn Abi Talib.."

So the muslims are also circum ambulating Ali's birthplace.....additionally they are kissing a black stone too...now is this idol worshipping? I am just enquiring as even the caliphs used to kiss this stone ?

The brand of Islam you follow is now questionable if you still say that Manifest Imams are fake as the "Rope of Allah" - the Nur e Imamah never dies nor is it fake as it is from the Essence of Allah ! Anyone who pursues the physical forms of the Imams are idol worshipping !The physical forms are for a term appointed !

Ali keh baad bhi Ali tha...aur uskeh baad bhi Ali tha...aur Qayamat thak Ali hi hogah....the bulbs change - not the current !

If people are ignorant or foolish in their understanding and remain obsessed by bigotry and obscurantist viewpoint, it is not the fault of Allah or HIS Prophet !..."Verily I have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.."

And as for anyone claiming that the Imam does not talk of Quran or quote any ayats etc etc...then all he needs to do is to read the broader Firmans, speeches, interviews, and find a bit more about the research which is ongoing at IIS where the top Shia and Sunni scholars are doing excellent research and under the umbrella of the Imam of the Ismailis....if the scholars are able to reach a consensus then they move forward or if they are stuck anywhere they do consult the Imam for clarifications and it is given save that the people on the street may not know this or if they do then they prefer to obfuscate !

Also there are lots of tafsirs to the Quran and sermons of the past Manifest Imams !

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[znanwalla]

Ta'wil of words 'An Aliyy' (Narrated by Ali):
"Mawlâ Ali reports that the holy prophet said: "I am the house of wisdom and 'Ali is its door. (Tirmidhi, V, 637).

Question: Which wisdom is mentioned in this Hadith?

Answer: The wisdom of the Qur'ân, the Hadith and spirituality, whose house is the Prophet and whose door, the Ali of the time." [Source: Tawil 629: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of words 'Qâla Rasûl Allâh' (The Messenger of God said):

"The holy Prophet said: "I have left behind among you two weighty things as a rope reaching the earth from heaven, one of them is greater than the other: the Book of Allâh and my itrat (progeny), the people of my house. They will never separate until they will come to me at the pond (of Kawthar)." These two unprecedented and magnificent things, each of which is weightier than the heaven and the earth, or rather the entire universe, are the Qur'ân and its Teacher (the Imam) whom the Prophet appointed as his khalifah or successor. It is they who are the rope of God which is stretched from the heaven to the earth to lift the people of the earth to the heaven (Sharh, X, 481)." [Source: Tawil 669: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Nafs' (Soul):
"Mawlâ Ali has said: "He who recognizes his soul, indeed recognizes his Lord." However, it should be noted that the treasure of recognition does not exist in the ordinary human soul until the Holy Spirit is attained from the True Guide. Indeed, the Holy Spirit is in the Imam of the time and he, in reality, is your own soul. If you have recognized the Imam of the time, then you should know that you have recognized yourself and your Lord." [Source: Tawil 889: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ati'ni' (Obey me):
"It is said in a Hadith-i qudsi: "O My servant! Obey me, I will make you like My Image (mithâl = sûrat-i Rahmân) everliving that you will never die, mighty that you will never be humiliated and rich that you will never be needy." p. 15).

This is the teaching of the paradise of knowledge and the greatest glad news." [Source: Tawil 77: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ali' (Vision of Ali):
"The holy Prophet said: "To look at the face of Ali is worship." (al-Mustadrak, III, 152-153; Sharh, IX, 381; Kawkab, p. 161).

[znanwalla]

Ta'wil of word 'Marifah' (Recognition of God):

"It is said in a Hadith: "Recognize Allah by Allah" (Lughât, Ayn, p. 82; Ahadith-i Mathnawi, pp. 2, 106).

That is, the recognition of God is possible in the illumination of His light and His light is the holy Prophet and the Imam of the time."

[Source: Tawil 835: A Thousand Wisdoms]
Ta'wil of word 'Law lâka' (If it were not for you):

"It is said in a Hadith-i qudsi: "If it were not for you (O Muhammad), I would not have created the heavens (i.e., universe)." Thus a Prophet so beloved of God has said to Mawlâ Ali: "You are from me and I am from you." [Source: Tawil 788: A Thousand Wisdoms]

"The day its ta'wil comes, those who were previously forgetful of it will say: "Indeed, the Messengers of our Lord brought the truth (haqq)." (7:53).

By the haqq (truth) is meant the walâyat of Ali.

Thus, those who had forgotten the ta'wil and the custodian of ta'wil, namely Hazrat Ali, will feel great remorse. (al-haqq = walâyat of Ali, see Sharh, II, 237; Al-Mustadrak (in which is mentioned that the truth is with Ali), III 135)."

[anajmi]

My personal opinion s that infallibility died with Imam Husain in Kerbala.

porus,

I am not sure what the definition of infallibility is as far as Imam Husain is concerned. I agree with the fact that Imam Husain could not have committed any sin knowingly and Allah would prevent him from committing any sin unknowingly, however, Imam Husain was open to betrayal. Would an infallible person allow himself to be betrayed?

According to wikipedia

When a person is called 'infallible', this can mean any of the following:

1 Some statements or teachings made by this person can be relied on to be certainly true
2 All statements or teachings made by this person can be relied on to be certainly true
3 All information believed by this person is true
4 This person is free from flaws or defects, especially of a moral nature


Imam Husain would certainly pass the above test.

Also according to the same article,

Furthermore, infallibility can refer to the 'absence of error' or to the 'inability to err'.

Imam Husain did not pass this test. He made a mistake by trusting the people of Kufa.

However according to the later part of the same page

Islam

Universal teachings
In Islamic theology, the widely held belief is that the prophets of Allah were infallible in the sense that all statements or teachings made by them can be relied on to be certainly true and all information believed by them is also true. Islam also teaches that the Qur'an is an infallible text, one that is certainly true and is something that can be safely relied on.

Additional Shi'a teachings
Main article: Ismah
In Shi'a theology, the belief is that the Ahl al-Bayt, including Muhammad, his daughter Fatima Zahra and Shi'a Imams are all infallible, but able to make mistakes. It is believed that they are infallible in the sense that all statements or teachings made by them can be relied on to be certainly true, that all information believed by themselves is true, and that they have complete knowledge about right and wrong and never intend to disobey God , in a sense, perfect creation. It is also held by Shi'as that there were 124,000 Prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Muhammad - with all, including the latter, being infallible in the same sense as the Ahl al-Bayt. [4] [5]

If you agree with the above definition, then yes, Imam Husain was infallible. And yes, infallibility died with Imam Husain. The rest of them are simply pretenders.

So, we have been without an authentic (as in authorized by God) interpreter of Quran since then.

Yes, I agree with that too. One shouldn't try to find hidden meanings within the quran. No one has that knowledge. Just follow whatever is obvious and pray to Allah for forgiveness.

[znanwalla]

Ta'wil of word 'Ahl adh-dhikr' (The Pure Imâms):

"Dhikr is one of names of the holy Prophet (65:10-11).

The people of dhikr therefore, are the family of the holy Prophet.

Dhikr is also one of the names of the Qur'ân (21:50), and so the people of dhikr, are the people of the Qur'ân.

Dhikr is also the ism-i azam (supreme Name), i.e., the asmâ'ul-husnâ (the beautiful Names) and therefore, the people of dhikr are the people of ism-i azam, the pure Imâms.

Thus, by the people of dhikr are meant the Imâms who guide the people and are enriched with the given knowledge (ilm-i laduni), and therefore, they are able to answer every difficult question related to knowledge." [Source: Tawil 154: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ta'wil' (Hikmat: Wisdom):
"Regarding the Qur'ân, Mawlâ Ali has said: "Its zahir or esoteric aspect is an obligatory act, its bâtin or esoteric aspect is hidden and veiled knowledge which is known to and written with us." [Source: Tawil 195: A Thousand Wisdoms]

[znanwalla]

"The Book and the wisdom are mentioned together in mumerous verses of the Qur'ân such as (2:129).

In such cases by the Book is meant tanzil (zahir, exoteric) and by wisdom ta'wil (batin, esoteric), as is implied in verse (2:151): "(O the group of Imams!) as We have sent among you a messenger from among you who recites to you Our verses (in spirituality), purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom." [Source: Tawil 187: A Thousand Wisdoms]

[znanwalla]

Ta'wil of word 'Awliyâ Allah' (Chosen friends of God):

"In verse (10:62) God says about His friends: "Lo! verily for the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve."

These friends of God are the progeny of the holy Prophet whom God has exalted by granting them the ta'wili miracles of the glorious Qur'ân, because the greatest miracle of the holy Prophet which is intellectual, permanent and in the form of knowledge, is indeed the wise Qur'ân.

The Qur'ân has two aspects: tanzil and ta'wil.

Tanzil or exoteric aspect was conveyed to the people by the Prophet himself and for ta'wil or esoteric aspect, he appointed his successor." [Source: Tawil 137: A Thousand Wisdoms]

[anajmi]

znan

"To look at the face of Ali is worship."

Well, that may be so, but Hazrat Ali is no longer among us and it is not possible to look at his face.

As far as everything else you write, I've told you before, there is nothing I can say to argue since you've made shirk part and parcel of your religion. You also assume, that this manifest Imam of yours (whoever he is, he is a fake) is going to intercede on your behalf and you also assume that his intercession is going to be accepted.

Here is my take on intercession - the prophet (sas) is the best muslim and was sent as a mercy to all mankind. You can safely assume that the prophet will have Allah's permission to intercede on behalf of all muslims, nay all of mankind. If the prophet's intercession is not accepted by Allah, do you think the intercession of this fake manifest Imam will be accepted? Case closed!!

[porus]

My interpretation of infallibility being confined to Prophet, Ali Fatima, Hasan and Husain is based on scholarly commentaries on the tradition of the cloak and the revelation of the ayat of 'purification' (33:33). Shia use the term ahlul bayt to include all Imams, but Quran also mentions the possibility that the the leaders (Imams) from the progeny of Ibrahim could be among the non-righteous (2:124). These leaders are Imams appointed by fallible leaders through nass.

Often, Allah's plan becomes apparent only in hindsight. This is the 'teleological' explanation of historical facts. Husain did not err in trusting the Kufans. Kufans gave into the mortal fear for their lives if they continued to support Husain. This was their 'High Noon' and their fear, in human terms, is understandable and their recapitulation in the face of fear is also understandable. Only, Husain had pledged to uphold 'Truth' at all costs and did not succumb to fear.. This is why he is called Sayyidus Shuhada.

To be infallible does not mean that Imam could foretell the future. That privilege belongs to Allah alone. Even if the Imam could foretell the future, he would not compromise that gift to thwart God's plan. In that case, we have to assume that the gift came with the knowledge, pledge and responsibilty to follow that plan.

[While the Shia include their Imams after Husain among ahlul bayt and hence infallibe, that term lost significance with sectarian split among the Shia. Traditions of each sect purports to demonstrate the rightfulness of its own Imam. The only rational conclusion is that all sects are true in their own way. But only Allah knows the real truth.]

[znanwalla]

So when Allah says, .." whichever way ye may turn, you will see the face of God..." how do you explain this ayah? do you see HIM? if so how? If God says that HE has a Face and a hand and eyes (It is in the Quran) and you claim you already have a direct relationship with HIM, then I am sure you will be able to describe to us how HIS face looks at least ? or did your scribes make any mistake whilst compiling for your Caliphs?

And as you seem to be an expert on the subject of TAWHID, do please take the time to discuss the various degrees of TAWHID for us so that we can learn from you what is Shirk, to begin with ?

"The following hadith is about the virtues of the Qur'an: "Indeed, everything has a heart and the heart of the Qur'an is Yâ-Sin (Surah 36)" (Trimidhi, V, 162).

One main reason for this title of Yâ-Sin is that the Treasure of the treasures of God is mentioned in it, which is: "And We have encompassed everything in the manifest Imam." (36:12). That is, God enfolds the universe in the living and present Imam and also unfolds it from him." [Source: Tawil 106: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Kullu shay'in' (Everything, all things)

"Mawlâ Ali has said: "Anâ âyâtu'llâhi wa aminu'llâh, i.e. I am Allah's signs and I am the trustworthy of Allah." (Kawkab, p.208).

Âyât in the sense of the signs of Divine power or miracles, are in four places: (i) The higher world, (ii) the wise Qur'ân, (iii) the external universe and (iv) the personal world, but according to the Qur'ân (36:12) all these âyât (signs) are encompassed in the light of the Imâm-i Mubin.

(So the argument that Imam Ali is not alive, is an incompetent and an irrelevant argument, showing ignorance) !

That is, his (Imam of the time) light is the higher world, he is the speaking Qur'ân, the quintessence of the universe and a luminious personal world in true sense." [Source: Tawil 10: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ahsâ' (He (Allah) has encompassed them)

"It is said in verse (78:29): "And We have encompassed everything in (the form of) a book."

The meaning of everything cannot be complete without intellects and souls, nor can a merely silent book possess all intellectual and spiritual (moving) things.

Therefore, it is true to say that this is a description of the speaking book, i.e., the Imâm-i mubîn" [Source: Tawil 33: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ma'a'l-Qur'ân' (With the Qur'ân):
"Externally Ali (Imam of the time) is a pure personality and internally a light.

Externally, the Qur'ân is a glorious heavenly Book and internally (in the Prophet and the Imam) it is light.

This shows that externally Ali and Qur'ân are separate from each other, but internally they are not only together, they are one light." [Source: Tawil 820: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Ma'a'l-Qur'ân' (With the Qur'ân)

I did say that After Ali, it was Ali and after him it was still Ali and it will be Ali until the Day of Judgment regardless of how averse disbelievers may be, Allah keeps on perfecting HIS Light !

Thank you Sir !

[IMMUSLIM]

Bro ZN

"Obey Allah,the Apostle and the Olil Amr" !

Disobedience to the Olil Amr is disobedience to the Prophet and so it is obviously disobedience to Allah too !

Here is the complete translation
004.059 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Here believers are told that if they differ they can refer to Allah and His Apostle, so the only one a believer can differ to is “those charged with authority” (Olil Amr)
How could somebody tell you to beseech him, worship him and invoke Hindu Gods because Quran says
003.079 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's": on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."

003.080 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To God in Islam)?

Yes, I agree with that too. One shouldn't try to find hidden meanings within the quran. No one has that knowledge. Just follow whatever is obvious and pray to Allah for forgiveness.

Adding to Ajami’s post

003.007 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[porus]

Nice one. God says Quran is clear and unambiguous. And then he contradicts himself in the same message saying its meaning cannot be understood!

What would be the point of the your message for me if you do not want me to know what is in it?

God being devious, eh?

Engaging in taawil is a personal quest for understanding. Imams do not start out with perversity in their hearts to seek discord when tasked to explain the Quran. That is the task of self-righteous bigots.

One way to understand the function of taawil is to clear confusion. This is demonstrated very clearly to Musa by the unidentified person in Sura Kahf.

Bigots generally start with the assumption that the Shia are perverse and seeking discord. Hence, they use the translation of 3:7 to self-righteously point accusing finger to their Imams.

I am very suspicious of any use of taawil for deification of human beings. That is not taawil. Taawil is to elucidate mystery that is the Universe, its origins and the source of Quran's moral teaching.

[anajmi]

[While the Shia include their Imams after Husain among ahlul bayt and hence infallibe, that term lost significance with sectarian split among the Shia. Traditions of each sect purports to demonstrate the rightfulness of its own Imam. The only rational conclusion is that all sects are true in their own way. But only Allah knows the real truth.]

Weel, my rational conclusion is that with these splits, none of them are true in their own way. They have all been misled. The only thing that hasn't split or changed is the quran and the sunnah of the prophet.

[anajmi]

To be infallible does not mean that Imam could foretell the future. That privilege belongs to Allah alone. Even if the Imam could foretell the future, he would not compromise that gift to thwart God's plan. In that case, we have to assume that the gift came with the knowledge, pledge and responsibilty to follow that plan.

And then what about when God offered to help Imam Husain with Angels to fight the war? Was the refusal part of the plan too? Or may be that part is fiction.

Engaging in taawil is a personal quest for understanding. Imams do not start out with perversity in their hearts to seek discord when tasked to explain the Quran. That is the task of self-righteous bigots.

But all Taawil (well most of it anyway) leads to the deification of a human being as znan has suggested in almost all his posts. If you pick up Daimul-Islam, almost every ayah on which a question can be asked (and some which are obvious) led to the glorification of the Imam.

Taawil is to elucidate mystery that is the Universe, its origins and the source of Quran's moral teaching.

What is the point in looking for it if one knows that it cannot be found? That understanding of the quran is gone with Imam Husain. What is unclear will remain unclear till the day of judgment. Whatever else that comes out is either for perverse reasons or genuine misunderstanding. Either way, it should be ignored.

[anajmi]

Nice one. God says Quran is clear and unambiguous. And then he contradicts himself in the same message saying its meaning cannot be understood!

What would be the point of the your message for me if you do not want me to know what is in it?

Quran is clear and unambiguous, it's the taawilers that corrupt the message. What you need to know is pretty clear and unambiguous.

[anajmi]

znan

So when Allah says, .." whichever way ye may turn, you will see the face of God..." how do you explain this ayah? do you see HIM? if so how? If God says that HE has a Face and a hand and eyes (It is in the Quran) and you claim you already have a direct relationship with HIM, then I am sure you will be able to describe to us how HIS face looks at least ? or did your scribes make any mistake whilst compiling for your Caliphs?

So what you people have done is create an idol of Allah that looks like a human and started worshipping him. You guys started out with shirk and have now gone into idol worshipping. Your religion has become everything that Islam was against. Thank you sir!!

[anajmi]

znan,

(So the argument that Imam Ali is not alive, is an incompetent and an irrelevant argument, showing ignorance) !

I did not say Hazrat Ali is dead. I know the arguments against it. This is what I said.

Well, that may be so, but Hazrat Ali is no longer among us and it is not possible to look at his face.

Unles you also believe in re-incarnation which would lead me to conclude that you are a Hindu disguised as a muslim.

[porus]

And then what about when God offered to help Imam Husain with Angels to fight the war? Was the refusal part of the plan too? Or may be that part is fiction.

Legend. Possibly a fiction. Even if it was accepted as truth, there is a supplement which is conveniently ignored to make a polemical point. When the Jibreel offered hep to Husain, Husain asked to be informed of Allah's wish. Jibreel said replied that Allah wishes that Husain choose martyrdom (aap shahaadat ikhtiyaar kar lo). So Husain acted according to Allah's will.

Weel (sic), my rational conclusion is that with these splits, none of them are true in their own way.

I respect religious beliefs of all peoples. If you believe something, then it is true for you by definition. If it was not true for you, you would not believe it. Like, it is true that Jesus is the son of God for Christians. It is true for Muslims that Jesus is not the son of God. Bible is true and so is the Quran. God knows the real truth. Now there is no need for Muslims and Christians to abuse and kill one another over this issue.

But all Taawil (well most of it anyway) leads to the deification of a human being.

You confirm my contention that you are an ignorant bigot. I specifically pointed out revelation of Taawil in Sura Kahf to indicate what Taawil might be. Does Sura Kahf deify a human?

If you pick up Daimul-Islam, almost every ayah on which a question can be asked (and some which are obvious) led to the glorification of the Imam.

Daaimul Islam emphasizes the authority of Imams. No unbiased person would conclude that it deifies Imam.

4:59 states:
You who believe, obey God and obey God's Messenger and those in authority among you.

Ghadeere Khum clearly established who were in authority after the Messenger. Daaimul Islam stresses this point.

4:59 further states:

If you are in dispute over any matter, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you truly believe in God and the Last Day: that is better and excellent taawil-wise.

So, we are asked to refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger if there is a dispute. Not to hurtle accusations against one another. Messenger is not with us and we are going to have to have patience with Allah.

What is the point in looking for it if one knows that it cannot be found? That understanding of the quran is gone with Imam Husain.

What is the point in sending a message which no one can understand. Is God devious?

No. Surah Kahf and Sura Yusuf demonstrate that taawil is accessible to humans. And God does indeed reveal mysteries as time passes as a reward for human intellectual effort.

Infallibility is gone with Hussain, not access to taawil. The subject matter of taawil is to engage in elucidation of the nature of the Universe from theological point of view. Its final result is always a better appreciation of the awesome glory of its Creator. If it is used for deification of humans, it is not taawil.

[Momin]

We can go back and forth in quoting the Holy Qu'ran and citing various Hadiths. Yet at the end of the day, as MF concluded when I asked them, why do you believe in what you believe in, they replied it all stems down to ones personal "belief".

We are all basing these beliefs on historical events.

Based upon history, Sunnis believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Holy Qu'ran.

Based upon history, all Shias believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the Holy Qu'ran, and Imamate.

For the Sunnis to say that they have the most adherents/followers, does that make them right? Not at all. Did you know the Sunni Sunnah/Sunnism was spread by the sword?

Had the Shia Muslims gone on barbaric rampages after the death of the Holy Prophet, and throughout the course of history, the outcome of numbers would have been probably different today.

[anajmi]

I specifically pointed out revelation of Taawil in Sura Kahf to indicate what Taawil might be. Does Sura Kahf deify a human?

Classification of what is revealed in Surah Kahf and Surah Yusuf as Taawil is a smoke screen by the taawilers. Hazrat Musa and Hazrat Yusuf had to wait till the secrets were revealed to them. They didn't create their own interpretations. Infact when Hazrat Musa tried, he failed everytime.

Although I do agree with you that search for the understanding of the creation and the creator through verses of the quran that are mysterious is ongoing and will continue till the day of judgment. A lot that was unclear yesterday is clear today and a lot which is unclear today may be clear tomorrow.

Now as far as deification of the Imam is concerned, one might need to pick up the book. I explained all this in this thread

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgi-bin/U ... 027#000000

Here are some excerpts

There is a questioner who is talking to Abu Jafar Muhammad b Ali.

He says explain to me ayah 4:59, the Imam says, we are the people meant by God in this matter.

Then the Imam says in ayah 4:54, we are the target of jealousy.

Then the Imam recites the ayah 4:58 and says that, it is to us that He refers by this ayah.

The questioner then asked him about 5:55 and the Imam said - We are the people meant by God in this verse.

The quetioner then asked him about 9:119 and the Imam says - We are the truthful ones, and it is to us that this verse refers.

The questioner then asked him about 9:105 and the Imam responded - It is to us that this verse refers.

The questioner then asked about 2:143 and the Imam said - We are the middle nation.

The questioner then asked about the verse 4:54 and the Imam said - The words mighty kingdom refer to us.

The questioner then asked about the verse 22:77-8 and the Imam said - It is to us that this refers.

The man then asked about 29:49 and the Imam replied - We it is who are referred to in this verse.

Then 13:43

Then 13:7

Then 3:7

Then 35:32


If this is not deification, then I am unaware of the translation of deification used by the taawilers.

[porus]

Did Imam Baqir say he was God or that he was a partner of God? Did Imam Baqir or any Imam ever utter shirk? Read the book and let us know.

Taawil was revealed to Musa by another human, not Allah. So we can safely conclude that Allah had given access to taawil to a human. This establishes the principle that Allah can make taawil known to anyone he chooses. It does not mean that he keeps it hidden forever.

[anajmi]

For Khizr (as) there was no taawil that he had to interpret. That was knowledge of the future which he had, given to him by Allah. He didn't interpret the quran to discover taawil in the ayahs of the quran. The question of Taawil does not arise in that story in the quran!!

Did Imam Baqir say he was God or that he was a partner of God? Did Imam Baqir or any Imam ever utter shirk? Read the book and let us know.

If he had, he and shias would've been declared non-muslims a long time back. The Ismailis have taken that step already.

[anajmi]

Besides, I don't think knowledge of Taawil is the same as knowledge of the future.

[Africawala0000]

Potty, why do you keep claiming you will unleash your gutter mouth at the end of Ramadhan. Nothing has prevented you at the moment.

And as for your: Atleast we fast, for it to mean something!!

We do it too.

Fasting without understanding the Sura 104 of the Qur'an is like putting a muzzle on a donkey. He will fast too, but like you, it won't mean anything to him or God.

Killing people in Ramadhan and keeping the fast is what hypocrites like you do.

First clean your heart and mind and then clean your stomach. Go ask your Mullah if you are doing the right thing by condemining everybody in this forum while you are fasting. Belittling people and their faiths is unislamic. As far as I am concerned, you are not practicing Islam, but following a cult of Abu Jahal along with the other four in this forum.

What you guys are, are empty vessels that make the most sound.

African

[znanwalla]

Certainly I have no problem with the idea of "each man to his own faith" !

Allah is the best Judge ! however I beg to differ on the notion of purification being restrictive as this would contradict the Holy Quran and other ahadith of the Imams including Hazrat Ali and the Holy Prophet of Islam !

"SAY: Were the sea to be ink for the words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if WE were to bring the like thereof to help..." (Sura al Kahf)...Allah cannot be unjust ! HE cannot give guidance and purified beings to some and deny others ! If HE truly is a Just God (which HE is)then any theories of restrictive falls apart - even Sura al Kawthar talks of "abundunce" and adds..."It is thy insulter who is without posterity.."...If Allah created this posterity that HE gave Muhamad, then it is logical to say HE guided it aright, all the time...and I mean the pure progeny of the Prophet Sir !

It is clear from the above that the Book is not enough ! The Prophet also was abundantly clear ! And the Quran is clear too ! ..."And trust in the Living One who dieth not.." and this has been my theme all along ! Anyone who is revolving within the physical framework of the Imams or even the Panjtan Pak, is Idol worshipping !...

Imam Sadiq explains..." God - Glorified and Exalted be HE - shall never cease to be our Lord. And knowledge is HIS ESSENCE ! but it cannot be known ! Hearing is HIS ESSENCE - and it cannot be heard ! Seeing is HIS Essence and it cannot be seen - Power is HIS Essence - and yet it cannot be dominated !

Yet Allah says.."whichever way ye turn, you will see the face of God.." !

Now Imam Ali says.." perfect sincerity in TAWHID is that we NEGATE all attributes from HIM ! For every Attribute testifies to its being but other than the object to which it is attributed and every such object, in turn testifies to its being other than the Attribute itself.."

The Quran asserts that the Reality of God is a self-evident fact, one that frankly does not need any proof nor should this even be doubted and this reality isn't obscure either.

Ibn Abbas reports that a man went to the prophet and asked him:.." O! Prophet of God what is the summit of knowledge? The Holy Prophet replied:.."To know God - as HE ought to be known.." - so it is not the way you and I or we want to know but as he ought to be known and you need a guide here rather than sitting on home made boat, surfing endlessly in the turbulent waters, with no end in sight except hopes and empty promises for so long a time !

Like they say .."one in hand is better than two in the bush.." ! History pf the Prophets bear testimony that Oneness of Creatorship has never been in dispute within their respective communities...do please check and you will agree !

If any dispute in regards to polytheism entered the equation it generallydid so in regards to the issue of governance and maintenence of the "created order' - not the issue of Oneness of Essence or Creatorship !

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[znanwalla]

Are they not the same folks who killed the youths of paradise and the favourite grandchildren of the Prophet in a great hurry so that they could go for their salat and submit? Which Allah accepts such submission? Which God is so unjust as to give them retribution? Every effort was made by them to destroy the Imamat ! did they succeed? No ! why? Allah is clear in this regard..." HE keeps on perfecting HIS Light, however averse the disbelievers are...." and frankly if he keeps on perfecting HIS Light then how can one even argue about "fallibility or infallibility of this Light or even its Isma?

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[znanwalla]

Bismillah hir Rahman nir Raheem !

"...INNAL QU'RAN ONZILLA ALA SAB'ATU AHROFIN MA MINHA HARFON ILLA WALLAHU ZAHERON WA BATANON WA INNA ALI IBNE ABI TALEB, INDAHU MINHO ZAHERO WAL BATIN..."

"...FI ISMI FI TORAT E ELIAH FIL INZIL E ELIE, VA FIL QURAN E ALIYUL AZIM, VA IND UMMIE HAIDERA, VA IND ABI SABDER VA IND NABI MURTAZA, VA IND MUSALMIN KARARIN HAYR FARAR..."

The Quran encourages momins to reflect and ponder !

Bible also says in Matthews 27:46:

In the 9th hour ON THE CROSS Jesus cried with a loud voice saying ELI ELI LAMA SABACH THA NI?

I am sure you will find the translations for the above as you all are more knowledgeable than I am but if not then I will try and get it for you !

Thank you Sir !

ZN

[anajmi]

znan,

As per the quran, Jesus Christ was never on the cross. So he couldn't have uttered what you say he did.

HE keeps on perfecting HIS Light,

Whew!! Thank god. That means we have hope for the future. A better Imam might still be expected to arrive.

Thank you sir!!