OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS

[mburhan]

News from UK - correction

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/press-room/latest ... raud'.aspx

[anajmi]

Mustansir,

This post of mine will prove to you that I am not interested in having a discussion with the likes of you.

Does he bother to provide any explanation for why evolution is true as a natural process for rest of the animal kingdom and plants but not applicable to humans?

That is not true. I have said many times that I absolutely believe that people like you and fart have evolved from monkeys. So there, that proves you wrong.

Before I start treating you like I treat fart, stop referring to me in your posts. You must've known by now that it is you who will run. Apart from getting emotional and personal as soon as someone attacks your "science", there is nothing you have to offer.

porus and humsafar are the only two people I actually care about taking on in a serious discussion. The rest of you are nothing but fools who have read a few books and understood nothing else.

[Fatwa Banker]

..and you appear to have read just one, that too in a foreign language you don't understand. What you classify as a serious discussion the rest of us brush off as the ramblings of a village idiot.

Actually the quran talks about the earth being spherical (egg shaped) and that it revolves around the sun, almost a thousand years before Galileo..

There is no ayah in the quran which says that the earth is egg shaped.

Argue with yourself often ?

[anajmi]

I am a scientist you moron. I always argue with myself.

[Aarif]

For those who are seeking proof of God, this is a good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIIS55S ... dded#at=21

A baby boy is born this year (2009) in a remote area called Dagestan in Southern Russia.
The uncommon thing about this baby is that he has verses from Qur'an appearing on his body, that change every few days.
Allah has many ways to show his signs. This is one of them. SubhanAllah.

[Mustansir]

Aarif,

I hope you are not actually considering this as credible evidence to prove the existence of Allah. C'mon...are you serious?? I don't know where you live but if you are remotely familiar with any other religion than Islam, you should know that this sort of pseudo or false patterns & images are seen in other religions all over the world. You have images of Hindu gods on peculiar objects such a table or a bark of a tree, you have faint images of the Virgin Mary and Jesus appearing on toasted sandwiches, tortillas, and wait for it...on toilet seats too in Las Vegas! Does that mean that Christianity is suddenly proven to be true and you are going to convert as soon as I show you those images? Why is it that it is always a Muslim who supposedly recognizes faint patterns of either the word Allah or some Qu'ranic verses and never the image of Jesus? And you always have evangelical Christians seeing images of Mary or Jesus but never of Ali, Mohammad or Allah?? And why is it that Agnostic or Atheists never see any of these images?? This is how Allah chooses to communicate?...by sporadically showing itself in form of a tree, or a lion's roar or on a baby's arm? But never when a hungry child is dying out of starvation.

This is a well known fact that humans are pattern seeking animals. We all seek out patterns which reaffirm our existing thinking. Christians see Jesus from toasted bread to potatoes, Muslims see only their Allah or Muhammad on trees or cabinets, Hindus see their gods, and plain old enthusiasts see a man's face on the moon. See a very faint outline of few natural curves on a surface, automatically a Muslim claims that it is some verse or part of a verse from the Qu'ran...because he/she wants to believe it as it reinforces the faith. When there is no credible evidence or sign of the imaginary friend, one lowers the bar of evidence so low that anything goes. Did you once think that with literally billions of babies born in the last century, how many of them showed faint images of the word Allah, Ali, or Qu'ranic verses written on them? With the laws of probabilities, how many babies need to be born before you will get a baby with a faint pattern on his back that looks like the outline of Virgin Mary, or Arabic-looking words on his/her arms? Is there any statistical difference between the appearance of one type of god over another or it's nothing more than what chance would account for...? I guess you think much less of 'Allah' than even I do as you have just reduced him to a caricature and nothing more.

If this is the only type of evidence you need to believe in the existence of a god, you need to first check out all those religions that make the same claims and than decide which toasted sandwich or a baby's arm seems more appealing....

[porus]

For those who are seeking proof of God, this is a good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZIIS55S ... dded#at=21

A baby boy is born this year (2009) in a remote area called Dagestan in Southern Russia.
The uncommon thing about this baby is that he has verses from Qur'an appearing on his body, that change every few days.
Allah has many ways to show his signs. This is one of them. SubhanAllah.

What? It's April 1st already?

[anajmi]

Saw this on Zee TV a couple of months back, but didn't think this was evidence of God. This is not how God chooses to show his signs. I would prefer a quran appearing on your 7th birthday on your dining table in a language you could understand. And that too only for those that are born on April 1st.

[porus]

This is not how God chooses to show his signs. I would prefer a quran appearing on your 7th birthday.....

God says his signs are the night and the day; and the sun and the moon.

Yet there are some who would post evidence on youtube and at least one who would look for a copy of the quran to appear on my dining table on my 7th birthday.

[anajmi]

And why is it that Agnostic or Atheists never see any of these images??

Actually if they go to the link provided by Aarif, they will be able to see the images. Or they can visit Dagestan in Southern Russia.

[anajmi]

God says his signs are the night and the day; and the sun and the moon.

Yet there are some who are too dumb to figure this out. And hence they are ridiculing ayahs on arms and want qurans appearing magically on birthdays!!

[anajmi]

Why is it that it is always a Muslim who supposedly recognizes faint patterns of either the word Allah or some Qu'ranic verses and never the image of Jesus? And you always have evangelical Christians seeing images of Mary or Jesus but never of Ali, Mohammad or Allah??

My uncle, who is a shia Ya Ali person, once told me that if I were to look closely, I will be able to see that the Hindu writing of OM and the Arabic writing of Ali looks exactly the same. So you see, since none of these people have actually seen any of the people, the faces they see cannot be those of anyone other than what they have in their heads. No one has seen Hazrat Fatima or Hazrat Mariam. So if the face of Hazrat Fatima appears on a christian toast, they will consider it to be Hazrat Mariam (Mary) and if the face of Hazrat Mariam (Mary) appears on a Muslim toast, they will consider it to be Hazrat Fatima and it cannot be verified one way of another. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

And since atheists and agnostics do not have anything in their heads, they see nothing.

[porus]

This is a true story.

There was a friend, an anajmi clone, who dragged me to Shri Ram Mandir in Southall, UK a few years back to witness an idol of Krishna imbibing milk from a glass he held to its mouth. On observing this miracle with my own eyes, my friend predicted that I would go to hell for not accepting Krishna as my savior. Or was that anajmi?

[anajmi]

Muslim hell or Hindu hell, looks like the destination for you is hell one way or another.

[Aarif]

I never thought this link will create such big stir or should I say stir fry among intellectuals of this forum. I just received this email from a friend and posted it in good faith. I should have added a disclaimer at the end saying I have not validated whether this is a fact or not.

Anyways I have a question for all. What kind of proof will make you guys beleive that god exists? And if god provides that proof will you guys beleive that he exists or you will dismiss the proof calling it fake?

[porus]

Fine, you tell me what kind of evidence would you like?

How about this?

God speaks in a booming voice from the sky, much like he did when he talked to Moses in the movie ‘The Ten Commandments”, to all the peoples of the earth, who would hear his message simultaneously in their own languages. He declares that his scriptures will suddenly appear on their dinner table; just so that they do not miss it when they get their meals. The scriptures will be in each person's native language and there will be enough copies for all over the age of seven. Then at each person’s seventh birthday, he will speak to them and their copy will appear on their dinner table.

Not difficult for God at all. Is it?

God should speak at least once a day so people don't miss his message, say at 8:00 pm local time, in each time zone.

There will still be a porus or two who would not be satisfied if it can be shown that humans can arrange such a miracle!!!

[anajmi]

Aarif,

porus has said earlier that there is no proof that can be provided for God's existence. Which is correct. There is a saying which goes like this - For those who believe, no evidence is necessary and for those who don't, no evidence is possible.

It is surprising that people who agree that no proof is possible still continue to be disbelievers in the miracles of Allah. If no proof is possible, then there is no reason not to believe without proof. Demanding for proof when they claim none is possible is being disingenous. Anyway, as the quran says, it is only Allah that can make you a believer. So it doesn't matter what proof you provide, a booming voice, or a magical quran on their birthdays, they will remain faithless.

[porus]

This has got to be a gargantuan waste of time.

[Aarif]

God should speak at least once a day so people don't miss his message, say at 8:00 pm local time, in each time zone.

I am sure God can provide this proof if he wants to.

There will still be a porus or two who would not be satisfied if it can be shown that humans can arrange such a miracle!!!

But than reading your above qoute it is not going to make any sense some people will still dismiss the proof calling it fake.

[anajmi]

Aarif,

Why would God want to waste his time on those that aren't worthy of his time? Besides, it is not beyond God to make a believer out of someone without providing any proof whatsoever. So if you are a disbeliever, then that is how God wants it to be.

[porus]

Aarif,

Why would God want to waste his time on those that aren't worthy of his time?

God cannot waste any time. He has all of it and some. They are unbelievers who would seek to confine God within temporal limits. They are the children of fire! (ashaabun-naar).

[anajmi]

I stand corrected. Why would God want to spend his time on those that aren't worthy of his time? Besides, it is not beyond God to make a believer out of someone without providing any proof whatsoever. So if you are a disbeliever, then that is how God wants it to be.

[porus]

Aarif,

I think this is better. I do not think that humans can arrange this. God declares that on April 1, 2010, he will split the moon into two hemispheres. He would locate them on opposite sides of its current orbit. All humans can then see two hemispherical moons every day. But he must declare first in a booming voice.

There will be clear advantages. There will be no tides........we can have 2 days of Eid......and. to anajmi's eternal satisfaction, everyone will be a believer...

[anajmi]

Actually, with a bit of trickery, PC Sorkar would be able to do that. And that won't even affect tides as not having tides would be bad ecologically. You should study some science.

[Aarif]

Aarif,
I think this is better. I do not think that humans can arrange this. God declares that on April 1, 2010, he will split the moon into two hemispheres. He would locate them on opposite sides of its current orbit. All humans can then see two hemispherical moons every day. But he must declare first in a booming voice.

Porus,
The problem with your request for proof is that even if God does what you want him to do, a few decades from now someone else will not believe that this ever happened and ask for some other proof as per his whims and fancies. E.g. God has provided enough proof in the past but today you are again asking for one. So if you can first prove that this proof will be considered as the neccessary and sufficient proof by the entire mankind for the rest of their existence on planet earth, I am sure God will oblige... And Anajmi, I agree with you. No proof is good enough for a dis-believer and no proof is neccessary for a believer.

[porus]

Arif,

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my request. In future, people will say there were always two hemispheres. God did not split them. Unfortunately, God has said that he will not be sending any more messengers or scriptures. So, no more proofs from God.

Maybe we should become Hindus and await a new avatar when things get really bad for Hindus. Then we will have proof. Or we can become Christians and encourage Armageddon for Christ to come back. Or.....words fail me! Let us sing the glory of God. Hallelujah, Subhanallah, har hari aum....

[Mustansir]

Aarif,

It is not a matter of controversy or something blown out of proportion. You wrote that "For those who are seeking proof of God, this is a good one". Well it's not a good one by any standards. Either words mean something or they don't. From what you wrote, the only meaning I could take out was that videos like the one you posted can actually be considered as credible evidence for the existence of one particular type of god - in this case Allah. For a Muslim believer, such stories may reinforce his/her faith in Islam. But as I wrote earlier...did you think about other religions who make similar claims and had similar occurrences? What could lead to such spiritual image-popping events? Why people from different religions end up experiencing similar phenomenon? Is the explanation to do with something, which is outside of the mind or something within? Is it because of some celestial god or because of the mere belief in a celestial god?

The whole point for writing this Open Letter in the first place was to simply question that how can a person discredit the holiness of Aqa Moula & mock his followers as irrational, naive & ignorant, who don't question his alleged superiority & follow orders blindly..... and yet blindly follow another earlier self-proclaimed prophet and an old book without question or critical analysis. As i wrote in the very first post..aren't you simply replacing one kind of dogma with another? On what basis you say that Aqa Moula (along with his farmans) is just another human cult leader with no supernatural powers but Muhammad (with the Quran) was totally different? How do you know that? Quran is not the only ancient book that is claimed to be written by a celestial being. There are a total of 77 books that together make up the Bible. They way the Bible demands how a human should worship the Judaic/Christian god is very different from what the Quran demands! Which is the right holy book and how do you decide on it?

Everytime I ask these questions, people like anajmi will literally avoid them at all cost like the bubonic plague and desperately try to change the subject. Question about the ancient scriptures, the guy jumps to evolution. Start talking about evolution, the guy jumps to human evolution. Start talking about human evolution, the guy jumps to science vs. religion. Address that issue, the guy then starts talking gibberish. And now we are back to square one. It is not the agnostic or atheist who is making a positive claim..it is the believer. All I am asking is what makes you believe in the Islamic god and reject all the other gods? I have the absence of belief in the gods of the monotheistic religions because I don't see any credible evidence for the claims each one makes. So I presume that you are believing in Allah because you must have come across some concrete evidence right? Are you a Muslim simply because your parents were Muslims too and they raised you as one?...or are you a Muslim because you examined the available religions one by one when you reached maturity and then, finally chose Islam because that had the most concrete evidence?

If you say that you believe in Allah solely based on faith and no evidence, than that is my answer right there. I won't have any more questions because it is your personal faith and I cannot and should not challenge you on that. But if you say, that you believe in Allah because of evidence...what is it? Where is it? What past evidence are you talking about....a self-proclaimed prophet who had a book from the sky? Believers from other religion make the same claim with the same passion, emotions and intensity. How do you know that the book is indeed written by a celestial being and not just by a bunch of humans? Not all the alleged holy books can be authentic...how do you decide yours is the right one and rest of them are fake? Never mind coming up with strong evidence or logically sound arguments for a nonbeliever to believe...All I want to know is what evidence or logically consistent arguments are you depending on to believe in Allah over other gods like Ra, Zeus, Yahweh, Aphrodite, Apollo or Hera?

[anajmi]

This entire post displays your complete ignorance about religion in general and Islam in particular. For eg. prophet Muhammad never claimed to have supernatural powers that the Dai does. He never asked people for money that the Dai does. The prophet was not a cult leader like the Syedna. This is basic Islamic knowledge that you lack.

Allah over other gods like Ra, Zeus, Yahweh, Aphrodite, Apollo or Hera?

You seem to be getting your knowledge about religion from comic books. Get some knowledge first and then you can be considered worthy of a discussion about religion. Till then, anything I say will be like "bhens ke aage been bajana".

[anajmi]

As far as the Bible goes, there are 4 gospels. And their titles say they are the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These are all accounts of prohet Jesus' apostles and their versions of time spent with Jesus. These are similar to the Hadith that we have. None of them claim to be revelations from Lord Almighty to Jesus. Christianity in its current form was taught by St. Paul and not by Jesus Christ. The concept of a Pope or a Dai are innovations for selfish purposes.

The jews have kept the Torah on the side and now prefer the Thalmud which gives them sovereignity over all living beings. They refer to all the non-jews as Gentiles. According to the Thalmud, everything that belongs to a Gentile can be grabbed by a jew but nothing that belongs to a jew need be shared with a gentile.

Now go to the quran and the teachings of the prophet Muhammad and see what they have taught. But you have obviously studied all religions haven't you?

[Fatwa Banker]

Now go to the quran and the teachings of the prophet Muhammad and see what they have taught

Quran 4:34: As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them [lightly]
Quran 8:12:I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Nice !