OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS

[anajmi]

Backbone is not the same thing as testicles... Semen production has nothing to do with the backbone!

Correct. And there is no ayah in the quran which says that semen is produced in the backbone.

accty,

Please go to the library and pick up any book on the history of Islam or pre-islamic arabia. And if you cannot find it and you believe that the quran is a lie, then you are welcome to accept kufr, which you might've already.

being barraged with this "between backbone and ribs" BS.

Are all you people complete idiots? "between backbone and ribs" was simply a correction to an erroneous quotation by mustansir. I am not sure which universities you idiots got your "smart" degrees from. Mustansir keeps talking about evidence between the prophet and Syedna and keeps ignoring what I have repeated a dozen times. Is that how science is taught and understood?

You should be able to fill these pages

The pages have been filled. Millions of books have been written on the subject. But the knowledge is not for you fart. I have quoted numerous ayahs hundreds of times but none of you have any response to any of those. You keep repeating the same tired crap over and over again. How the hell did you guys evolve?

which no man at that time could possibly have known?

First is that you should understand that if the quran had something in it that no man at that time would've known, wouldn't there be people like you who would reject it simply because they didn't understand it? The quran wasn't revealed so that farts could understand it in the 21st century. The quran talks about heaven and hell which no one even today knows about. Are you planning to wait till then to find out if it is true or not? There are ayahs in the quran which talk about orbits of the planets which no one would've known at that time. But then people believed not because they thought it was a good scientific book, but because it taught about life and especially for fart, when to beat your wife.

[anajmi]

The burden of proof is on you who is making such an extraordinary claim, not the other way round.

Correct. The proof has been provided. It is not sufficient for you to believe and that is acceptable. But please do not keep repeating that we need to provide proof. It has been provided.

Let me repeat - The proof has been provided.

You may choose to believe in it or not and that is upto you.

When I spoke against your version of science, you accused me of ignorance. Why? Doesn't the same thing apply to you? Isn't the burden of proof on you? Similarly, I am accusing you of ignorance. Now I know that your level of understanding is much inferior to mine and you won't understand what I am saying, but hopefully some sane person with marginal intelligence will understand what you are trying to feed us and where it will lead us.

[accountability]

But in quran it is never said that pre islamic women had no rights. it is those hollier than thou kind of people who came up with these kind of rhetorics. Also let me point one more thing, in pre islamic arabia, women were the ones to send out marriage proposals. You can check it on encyclopedia britanica.

[anajmi]

accty,

Those "holier than thou" kind of people are far more believable than people who won't even come forth about their own beliefs and accept their own selves. I believe those people more than I believe you or Encyclopedia Britannica. Besides, it is known fact that Hazrat Khadija sent out her own marriage proposal to the Prophet. Those holier than thou people say that too. I don't have to go to Encyclopedia Britannaica.

[Mustansir]

Name calling will not make the questions go away..

[anajmi]

But answering them will make them go away. And the questions have already gone away. All you could come up with was one misquoted ayah. I am still waiting for a "factual inaccuracy" or "paradoxical or contradictory verses".

[Fatwa Banker]

You have farted all across this topic and said nothing, except that Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs is where you balls are located.
You want me to post it one more time?

[anajmi]

A freudian slip from the fart. You are absolutely right. I left traces of you all over this thread behind my posts.

[Aarif]

Mustansir,

Prophet Muhammad made no tall claims. During his time pagan worship was followed by most people in Arabia. People were charged a lot of money by custodians of these pagan gods in-order to get their wishes fullfilled. In short people were cheated and looted by some in the name of God. (Which is what syedna is doing in our community). Prophet Muhammad brought Islam in those turbulent times which went against all these beliefs. Islam politically and socially changed the history of Arabia. This made lot of people unhappy. They tried their level best to crush the concept of Islam. The prophet had to work extremely hard to bring people on the right path. And just think logically for a moment. Why would the Pagan worshippers like Abu Sufiyan who made lot of money by managing temples of pagan gods, would give up everything and accept a new faith like Islam which would harm their monetary benefits? Why would the barbaric arabs leave their centuries old traditions and listen to an illeterate man called Muhammad? Asking me to provide proof that Quran is word of Allah sounds extremely silly on your part. Can I provide you with proof that Quran is the word of Allah? What proof do you expect from me?

Now, going to the difference between Prophet and Syedna. The prophet never claimed that he is Allah on earth and if you follow him he will take you to heavan. According to prophet Muhammad he was a follower of Islam like any other human being and if anyone followed Islam the way he did will go to Jannat in his afterlife. He never claimed that he
had any special powers to perform miracles or grant wishes to his followers. He stopped the Pagan practice of making money in the name of religion. Syedna on the other hand has restored the practice of making money in the name of religion. Syedna claims that he has hidden knowledge and can make things happen for his followers. Prophet gave Quran and five pillers of Islam. He never asked for anything in return from his followers. Syedna has given nothing to the community and is only exploiting it in the name of religion. Remember that both the one who is exploiting and the ones who are getting exploited are guilty.

Today can any bohra remain inside our community without paying money? Our community is a club with paid membership. If you stop paying you stop being its member. This has nothing to do with religion. I have a problem with educated well to do followers of syedna who can pay all the money to gain name and fame in the community but cannot help their own brothers and sisters living in utter poverty. The prophet and his family lived a simple life and set examples for the followers. Look at Syedna and his family. They are rolling in money on one hand and on the other hand a large percentage of our community live in poverty. Also, if you will read the Reformist agenda they want to bring about social reforms and not religious. If Syedna stops collecting money in the name of religion and his personal gains I will stop criticizing him. If bohras consider him Allah than so be it. I don't have any problem with that. But since, Syedna is exploiting the community in name of religion, and the followers are blindly getting duped, it is in general interest that one raises his voice against the corrupt practices in our community.

[porus]

Aarif,

You are not addressing Mustansir's question. As I understand it, he is asking you to produce at least one ayat from the Quran which is a convincing proof that the Quran is not the words of a human being, Muhammad, but are in fact the words of God.

Quran's claim that it is from God does not count.

[Aarif]

Porus,

Which ayah from Quran will prove that it is the word of Allah??? A non-believer will nit pick whichever ayah you provide. According to me the surah of kul-huvalla-ho-hud in Quran defining Allah is enough. But will it be enough for others asking for proof???

And again this word CONVINCING is highly subjective. No one can convince you if you do not want to get convinced.

[porus]

A non-believer will nit pick whichever ayah you provide.

Correct. There is not a single ayah in the Quran or a verse in any other scripture in the world that will provide a convincing proof that it is not the words of human beings.

Let me state the sub-text of Mustansir's question. Mustansir's question is not about the existence or non-existence of God. It is about why you, or any one else, wants to believe in HIM, or HIS EXISTENCE.

Let me give you a clue. Christian children believe that Santa Claus is real. When they grow up, they no longer believe that but continue to teach their children that he exists. There is a lot written about Santa Claus. Could you find one instance in all that writing which will convince you of his existence?

By the way, have you seen 'Miracle on the 34th street'?

[porus]

Aarif,

You have no doubt heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who created the universe. There are lots of proofs of his existence.

Actual sightings are here:

http://www.venganza.org/category/sightings/

However, if you haven't heard of the FSM, then look up this page first:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

[Aarif]

Porus,

What you are saying is again subjective. Some people believe Quran as a word of Allah. Every word of Quran for them is the proof of Allah. Some people will not agree to this saying that there is no explicit evidence stating the same. Hence, completely up to the individual how he/she wants to interpret.

And sorry, I have not seen the movie.

[porus]

And sorry, I have not seen the movie.

I suggest you immediately rent it from Netflix or Blockbuster?

The movie provides the proof of the existence of Santa Claus.

Little children, especially in the UK and the USA, write to Santa Clause and mail the letter to his address in North Pole. And children also get replies by mail. In the movie, post office delivers the mail to Santa Claus who is on trial accused of being a fake Santa. Judge rules that because Post Office delivers these letters, Santa clearly exists. And all parents breath a sigh of relief.

Wonderful, feel-good movie. Dont forget to show it to your children.

[Aarif]

Well at this point I don't have kids to show this movie to. But Inshallah someday I will. I think I have seen the DVD of this movie in family section of my local library. I will get it one of these days...

[anajmi]

As I understand it, he is asking you to produce at least one ayat from the Quran which is a convincing proof that the Quran is not the words of a human being, Muhammad, but are in fact the words of God.

Sure there is one ayah. The very first ayah of the 2nd surah Al-Baqara. Alif Laam Meem. This is not the work of a human. If it were, then humans would've understood what it stands for.

Then the second ayah which says that this is a book in which there is no doubt.

Have you ever seen a book written by a human author which makes that claim right at the beginning of the book? Human authors normally ask for forgiveness in their books for mistakes they might've made. The onus is now on the disbelievers to falsify that claim.

After watching Miracle on 34th Street, you should watch Avataar. Watch it in IMAX 3D, and then find the closest tree and start worshipping it. Although I kept waiting for Rajesh Khanna to show up, he didn't. I figured he'd become a part of Eywa.

[anajmi]

Oh and I forgot to mention. If those two ayahs are not sufficient, I've got a few thousand more that can only be from God.

[Aarif]

Porus,

Also, in this thread itself I have earlier mentioned that if Quran is the work of a human being he would have definitely wanted credit for writing a book that is revered by almost 1/4th of the world's population. The basic fact that no human has come forward to make this claim itself is the biggest proof that Quran is not a work of mortal man...

[anajmi]

I checked out the flying spaghetti monster website. It is hilarious. The funniest thing was reading the hatemail. Those guys don't have a clue about religion. They are actually trying to explain the bible to the owner of that website. It is like me trying to explain an ayah of the quran to the fart.

[porus]

Porus,

Also, in this thread itself I have earlier mentioned that if Quran is the work of a human being he would have definitely wanted credit for writing a book that is revered by almost 1/4th of the world's population. The basic fact that no human has come forward to make this claim itself is the biggest proof that Quran is not a work of mortal man...

Quran consists of words first spoken by Muhammad. He got these words from an angel.

In the United States, there are a number of individuals who utter words that they say come from their spirit guides. Esther Hicks channels her guide Abraham. Neale Donald Walsch has written a number of very popular books which he claims to have been dictated to him by God. These are 'Conversations with God' series. The latter are full of great lessons very clearly delivered.

Compared to Quran, they are a model of clarity.

It goes to show that God has learned his lesson well. He would have made his message easy to understand if he had written the Quran in the style of 'Conversations with God' series in the first place. Then we would not have had all these problems of interpretation of the Quran and endless debates about what an ayat is supposed to mean.

Neither Esther Hicks nor Neale Donald Walsch claims ownership to the writings they produce.

[anajmi]

Then maybe porus and mustansir should believe in that God huh!!? Or may be they should focus their energy on proving them to be irrational as that would be much more difficult to do since they are a model of clarity. And if they cannot, then they should declare - Hicks-ur-rasulallah or Walsch - ur - rasulallah. Better than the spaghetti monster I bet.

Has anyone ever heard of someone called "straw man"? A straw man is actually a prophet that comes to the aid of people like porus and mustansir when they find themselves in sticky situations. Some times the straw man can become the prophet of the mormons and sometimes the straw man can become Esther Hicks ( a woman) and sometimes he can becomes - Neale Donald Walsch. Maybe they should be worshipping the straw man.

[porus]

There is not a single ayah in the Quran or a verse in any other scripture in the world that will provide a convincing proof that it is not the words of human beings.

Or in any writing I am aware of that is produced anywhere in the world.

[anajmi]

Actually, one doesn't need to go look at all the writings to figure out if they are divine or not. All one has to do is reject divinity. That will encompass all writing produced anywhere in the world. So, do not give yourself too much credit.

[Aarif]

Neither Esther Hicks nor Neale Donald Walsch claims ownership to the writings they produce.

Are you comparing the works of these people with Quran? There are 1.6 billion muslims all over the world who take Quran as the word of Allah... Quran was written 1400 years back. If it would have been a mere work of man by now its followers would dwindled and we would have had it lying in the museum somewhere... What happened when Emperor Akbar tried deene-illahi? Why did he not succeed? Do you also know that Guru Nanak the founder of Sikhism was inspired by Quran?

[porus]

Neither Esther Hicks nor Neale Donald Walsch claims ownership to the writings they produce.

Are you comparing the works of these people with Quran? There are 1.6 billion muslims all over the world who take Quran as the word of Allah... Quran was written 1400 years back. If it would have been a mere work of man by now its followers would dwindled and we would have had it lying in the museum somewhere... What happened when Emperor Akbar tried deene-illahi? Why did he not succeed? Do you also know that Guru Nanak the founder of Sikhism was inspired by Quran?

I personally think that their works are more helpful to an average person than the Quran in the lessons they offer.

The fact there are 1.6 billion Muslims does not prove that the Quran is not a product of a human being. The number of believers have nothing to do with whether they have read the Quran and been convinced by it. I submit that 99% of all Muslims have not understood the Quran, even if they have had a chance to read it. The number owes its existence to other factors, primarily being the brain-washing Muslims receive in their infancy.

[anajmi]

porus is being disingenous once again.

I submit that 99% of all Muslims have not understood the Quran

He fails to mention that 99% of all Muslims have not understood the quran as per his own understanding of the quran. These 99% are the believers in the word of the quran. The 1% that have understood are the ones asking God to talk to them in a booming voice and send them copies of the quran on their birthdays in a language that they can understand!!

primarily being the brain-washing Muslims receive in their infancy.

So why hasn't porus being brain-washed? Was he a "special" child smarter than the rest of us? Does he think he is smarter than Hazrat Ali who accepted Islam at a very young age? Does he think that Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain were brainwashed? As I have shown time and again, porus doesn't have a clue what he is talking about most of the time. Parents try to give to their children that which they think is going to be the best for them here as well as in the hereafter. After a certain age, the child can make up his own mind. If he continues to follow the teachings of his parents, he is brain washed, and if he goes against them, he turns into a porus. I hope porus doesn't teach a class about parenthood. We should find out what he has taught his own children. Or did he consider teaching them anything as brain washing?

[anajmi]

I personally think that their works are more helpful to an average person than the Quran in the lessons they offer.

This shows the level of understanding of porus. Can porus give us examples of their works? What do they teach? What lessons do they offer that the quran does not? Remember, these two people that porus claims to receive enlightenment from, have in many instances being proven as frauds doing it for money.

A quote from Neale Donald Walsch

In a telephone interview, Mr. Walsch, 65, who said he regularly gave 10 to 20 speeches a year, said he had been retelling the anecdote in public as his own for years. “I am chagrined and astonished that my mind could play such a trick on me,” he said.

[porus]

Walsch is not, and does not claim to be, infallible. His books are easy to read. There are no muqatta'at in them. No mysterious writings. No false science. Nothing like 'milk is secreted from abdomen of cows from between their shit and blood' (16:66).

I can tell from his writing that God is now in favor of a fusion mainly of Christian and Hindu mysticism. That is what his books are, with a passing nod to Islam and Buddhism. Clearly, God has changed his mind.

Esther Hicks does not claim her writings are from God, but from a spirit named Abraham. You can catch a video of her channeling on the Web. She gets into a trance and her voice changes to a much shriller sound when Abraham speaks through her. Obviously not a God, who would have a booming voice worthy of a Hollywood Biblical epic.

[anajmi]

Nothing like 'milk is secreted from abdomen of cows from between their shit and blood' (16:66).

What happened to "taking it literally"? Sorry couldn't resist it. It would've been offending if you hadn't youself been created from an excretion. Who gives a shit about what Walsch has written. Let his and your new God talk to me in a booming voice. May be then I will give it some thought.

And I want Esther's Abraham to talk to me through Angelina Jolie.