Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilians

[ozmujaheed]

I cannot understand that you guys think only whites live in the West , West is full of multi-culture and tolerance and it is us who have had difficulty assimilating!Blaming modern day whites for indigenous atrocities is not in anyones interest. Lets talk about current issues.

By that point I am not saying we white wash history but live it in that context.

You all who claim we are so perfect then convince me the stats on this site are fiction

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Are you really aware what started the US attack on Afghanistan..it was Mula Mohammed defending and providing safe haven to AlQaeda rather then sending them out.

Iraq the stubbornness and ego of Saddam not to follow UN sanctions and negotiate in the name of sovereignty he let his people down. An then Sunnis would not accept to be ruled by Shias.

Palestine no one wants to sit down and negotiate or compromise this issue has dragged on and now Iran has got involved and using it to justify its power stand. Yes 50 years ago west when our fathers were still living in India and Africa made a blunder but what a wrong now for a wrong then will make it correct.

This summarizes my view

It is shocking to see Muslims entirely unmoved by atrocities when committed by other Muslims. When the attention is drawn towards these crimes, they boil in anger, as if to say "How dare you accuse us! Look at the rest of the world!"

Oh but the rest of the world is looking at you, dear Muslim friends. Your behavior is akin to that of a school boy caught breaking the rules. When confronted, he responds "Well other boys are doing it, too!" And yet, when the boy finds others breaking the same rules, he drags them to the teachers saying "This filth is breaking the rules and must be punished!"

You and I can solve the attitude by being man enough and sincere to admit we have a mess as a consequence of 1400yrs have passed and rather then pointing fingers lets work this issues out and do something about radicals and extremism whether in Bohraism, Ummah. This is not a sign of weakness but maturity and civilized society.

[Al Zulfiqar]

FB,

i agree with most of your conclusions. where reporting on the archaic and often outrageous things going on in the name of islam in countries like saudi arabia, esp. with women's rights is concerned, why do you think the west, esp. USA, remains largely silent.? i dont need to enumerate the reasons. perhaps michael moore showed it best when he exposed the close nexus between the bush's and the saudi royals and the special flight laid on for them to escape even after US airspace was completely sealed post the 9/11 crashes. the only reason the anachronistic kingdoms of the arabian gulf are surviving is clear. oil, wealth and their acquiescence with US policies and hegemony. both sides know what their trump cards are and what their weaknesses. the status quo which prevails is similar to an uneasy friendship with crocodiles if you want to swim.

as for ozzy's post, it betrays an almost absymal ignorance of recent world history with totally west-skewed blinkers on. incoherent rantings on saddam's ego, disobedience of western sanctions, palestinian intransigence blah blah etc.

what sanctions on saddam and for what? because they 'knew' he had WMD's? that was a lie. why did he attack kuwait? do you know the intimate details behind it? do you know that the US cleverly set up saddam and gave a silent but tacit nod to him to attack kuwait? who supplied him chemical weapons, heavy artillery, planes and bombs to gas the kurds and fight the iranians? what was the strategic plan to get iraq and iran to fight until total elimination of both sides? who supported the eight year war with arms, money and intelligence? if it was not for the wisdom and far-sightedness of khomeini in abruptly ending the senseless war with a gutsy unilateral ceasefire, both nations would have practically been obliterated.

As for the palestinians, for the first time they have a “democratically elected” govt to represent them, but the west won’t allow them to come to the negotiating table, because they don’t like them. For over 60 years the west has poured aid into palestinian factions, not the people, thereby encouraging outright corruption, nepotism and mismanagement. Then they accuse the palestinian people and leadership of being incompetent and not worth talking to. In fact the jews, backed by the US. have actually gone about creating factions and divisions in Palestinian leadership to keep them fractious.

With lack of infrastructure, water, electricity, even food and jobs, what education do you think they are getting? All the corrupt PLO and other factions’ officials made millions and moved abroad to the west and to dubai, and live in palatial homes. I have personally met many of them. What remains inside Palestinian lands is so pathetic that even dogs are better off. Due to inhuman sanctions there is no fuel, no cars, no jobs, no medicine, there is no hope. What sort of skilled negotiators do you think they can send to debate against the cunning Israelis and Americans? This is a fact which a top Israeli govt. negotiator himself admitted, perhaps his conscience awoke. If you were in this position, with no means, no resources, no voice, no education, money or avenues to protest, what would you do? Commit suicide or fight and at the least die with dignity?

The conflicts around the world, my friend, are not as black and white as painted by the west. Do not buy them so easily. If you have the moral stirrings, get up and go and visit these places. I will bet every last penny I have, that you will cry. I did not sleep for days and lost my appetite. How can man be so unjust to man?. Inspite of this I don’t hate the west. I still believe that their peoples have goodness in them. They need to be better informed and then see how they rise in protest. There is already a growing groundswell of discontent and anger inside the US, at American foreign policy and blind support of Israel.

As for the much touted multiculturalism of the west, US, EU and Australia, the vast majority of the populations in all these countries, from 75- 85% is still white. Other skins are visible because they stand out, but the reigns of power are still firmly in the grasp of the anglo-saxon combine, most with jewish leanings and support.

[anajmi]

oz,

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

People who kill innocents are despicable. I agree with all the stats you provided. I agree with everything you said about Saddam and the Taliban. People who kill innocents in the name of Islam are hell bound.

As far as everything else is concerned, as far as the present conditions of Iraq, Afghanistand and Palestine are concerned, you should follow your own advise and be man enough to admit that your masters messed up.

[porus]

ozmujaheed,

From your posts so far, I am about to conclude that you are not particularly knowledgeable about the issues you are talking about in this thread.

Some homework for you:

List all Muslim sects, Shias, Sunnis, Ismailies, Bohras, Ahmadiyyas, Wahhabi etc. Expound their religious teachings regarding terrorism and violence against innocents. Then judge their teachings against the Quran, as you underestand it. Then, come to the conclusion whether Islam is a religion of peace or not.

Do the same thing for Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism.

Then try linking Tamil Tigers with Hinduism, Irish Republican army with the teachings of Christ, Basque terrorists with the teachings of the Catholic Church, 9/11 terrorists, Saddam, and Taliban with Islam, Sandinista of Nicaragua with Catholicism, Afghan drug lords with Islam, Mexican and Colombian Drug lords with Catholicism, Irgun gang with Judaism and so on.

See if you can separate terrorism from teachings of these religions.

Finally, I assume you have attended Bohra bayaans and waez. In those gatherings have you, your friends or your family ever been taught to terrorize anyone in the name of Islam?

[Fatwa Banker]

FB, where reporting on the archaic and often outrageous things going on in the name of islam in countries like saudi arabia, esp. with women's rights is concerned, why do you think the west, esp. USA, remains largely silent.?

What concerns me more is why do you ? I have been asking this question on this site for years, and no one can answer it. Why the selective outrage ? Somehow connecting it back to US policy is not good enough.

Why are you ignoring Muslim on Muslim violence and abuse of basic human rights in Muslim countires and focused solely on US policies ? What is astounding to me is that the only response regarding the Iran Iraq war ever commented on by Muslims is the fact that the US helped Iraq. That's it ! The problem with the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait ? Well the US secretly blessed it. The problem with basic human rights violations and dignity in Saudi Arabia ? Well the US is buddies with the Monarchs. Muslims blowing up Muslims daily in Pakistan ? Wahabis shooting women in the head in soccer stadiums ? Well, you guessed it. You don't need to be a part of Porus' Book of the Month Club to know that.

Unless Muslims are on the streets protesting Muslim atrocities like they do cartoons, your biased outrage over US actions will never be taken seriously, and frankly hypocrytical.

[anajmi]

your biased outrage over US actions will never be taken seriously

And that is precisely what the US and it's minions want. This muslim on muslim violence is a tool used by the US to deflect attention from its own atrocities. Dropped twenty ton bombs and killed 500 children.. No problem, let us talk about women in Saudi wearing Burqas. If we were to eliminate the root cause of the problem, the muslim on muslim violence will go away.

[anajmi]

Somehow connecting it back to US policy is not good enough.

The biggest issue on earth right now is the one that we are all concentrating one. Pretty much every issue in every nation around the world for the last 60 - 70 years can be easily traced back to the US policies and that is what we are being asked to ignore.

[porus]

FB,

I think you are being unfair to Muslims in general. We were talking about successive US governments using its army to terrorize people of other countries to enrich a cabal of their rich citizens. In this, no distinctions between Muslim and non-Muslim victims of the USA terror was intended. In fact, in other areas such as the financial control we were discussing, victims are as likely to be American citizens as everyone else.

Are Muslims really silent on abuses of human rights in their countries? Just because these countries tightly control access to news media does not mean there is no wide scale dissatisfaction with every Muslim Government. If you look for evidence of this opposition, you will find it.

We should separate Muslim-on-Muslim violence into two categories. One is the result of power play among societies, like Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait or the Iran-Iraq war. This was not caused by Muslims just because they were Muslims. Similarly, the 2nd World War in Europe was fought amongst Christians, but Christianity had nothing to do with it, really. Although both sides tend to use religion to justify wars after the fact but these are tactical ploys to emotionally engage their sides.

The second category is the violence perpetrated by ‘Muslim’ religious zealots against their own societies. This includes what is known as Sunni-Shia violence. They are perpetrated by extremists on either side and are roundly condemned by all Muslims. I tend to put this violence in similar category to Hindu-Muslim violence in India and Muslim-Christian violence in Cyprus. Vast majority of the peoples on either side would condemn these. But a small despised minority, with weapons, can terrorize whole society. In this category, I also include regimes who abuse their own people, especially Saudi Arabia.
Having said that, Muslim societies will never adopt the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because, fundamentally, they are still extremely loyal to Sharia, which they believe is mandated by God. So, there will always be dichotomy between the two sets of rights.

Even those rights that are guaranteed by Sharia are not universally respected by Muslim regimes because these regimes are not popular and they are purveyors of repression. First and foremost, Muslims, the world over, need to liberate themselves from their regimes. But the zealots, who appear to be doing something about it by indiscriminate killing, are not to be followed. In fact, populations need to be protected from zealots.

While we do that, we need not turn a blind eye to the USA reign of terror in Muslim and non-Muslim lands.

[Al Zulfiqar]

FB,

although you comment on my post adressing me in the direct singular, i hope that it is only a simple vernacular tool to include all muslims, and not blaming me in particular for not protesting against violence in muslim societies.

i have gone on record here several times to say that the customs and rigid barbaric traditions of saudis or pakistanis or any muslim society where women are subjugated, treated as chattel or exploited and oppressed, has got nothing to do with islam. that those countries later adopted islam happens to be an event in history, but their pathetic and self-serving attempts to merge their pagan beliefs, customs and traditions with islam is giving the entire islamic world a bad name. but mine is a lonely voice. i suppose there are many others too, but no matter how many of us in our hundreds combine and even demonstrate in front of the seat of govt, we still cannot employ the clout of huge press agencies and newspapers and powerful media who can influence hundreds and millions at one go. as i have mentioned before, these media agencies are not being honest, but have sinister agendas and vested interests of pressure groups and lobbies influencing them.

if the US and the west take it upon themselves to be the world's moral police and hell-bent on interfering in every conflict everywhere, then let them first clean up their own act. for your information, i am a member of the muslim canadian congress, a body which has had the daring to petition the canadian govt to BAN the full face niqab and backed it up with studies showing it as unislamic and an infringement on rights of women. the debate rages and many prominent members among us have received death threats which have been informed to the govt and RCMP, canada's secret police. we have also publicly remonstrated against muslims indulging in senseless acts of violence and terrorism, such as the recent times square incident or the huge scandal surrounding the toronto 18, a gang of misguided muslim youths planning to blow up canada's parliament and behead its prime minister.

we have also vociferously opposed the implementation of sharia law for pvt arbitration among muslims in canada, a la the freedom given to the jews. i was the only muslim who had the guts to publicly ask a question to a visiting islamic scholar from pakistan who holds dual pakistani and dutch nationality, why muslims in pakistan and elsewhere do not come out into the streets in huge numbers when muslims commit crimes against humanity and why the ulemas do not help organise them, when those same muslims protest so violently against other outrages against themselves? I was pleasantly surprised at his thoughtful reply when he himself rued that extremists outnumbered the moderate and balanced groups. but he was also hopeful and in a perverse way, thankful, that the events post 9/11 have forced muslims to do some intense soul searching and correct themselves. the spotlight which is now on muslims will only help them grow stronger and better.

remember that a large part of many muslim countries are still far lagging behind in education and literacy. it is these deprived and marginalised sections of muslims who are venting their frustrations the most violently. i wud expect someone of your understanding to more easily comprehend such things. shud i now perhaps, accuse you of trying to generalise and categorise everything in simple black and white, when you yrself stated that there are various shades in between? i resent that you view anyone, but anyone, who opposes the hegemonistic and self-serving thoughtless actions of the US, as being some sort of zealot or terrorist who sympathises with senseless acts of violence perpetrated by jaahils.

i am somehow slowly coming to the conclusion that no matter how balanced a criticism there is, but if it is against the west, and esp. the US, you seem to overreact? if so, i am sorry to say, you are as much of an extremist as the muslim terrorists and their supporting govts you rail against.

[SBM]

Op-ed which appeared in Miami Herald
AMERICAN MUSLIMS
Fight homegrown terrorism in mosques, at schools
BY MOHAMMAD S. SHAKIR
mshakir@miamidade.gov

Fifty years after their arrival many Muslims still live in a disconnect, and America knows very little about them and their faith.
My generation of immigrants did not arrive on American soil to proselytize Americans or Islamize the Constitution.
We came because we were inspired by American education, economic opportunities and freedom to excel to our best potential -- to achieve the proverbial American Dream.
When this generation arrived in the '60s and '70s, its members were well grounded in their values -- they founded Islamic institutions, built mosques and established schools sometimes before owning their own homes.
None of them became terrorists, but the same cannot be said of the next generation.
The children of privilege, born in affluence, raised in comfort with the best education and other amenities in life are rejecting it, sometimes resorting to violence to express their rejection.
There may be justified reasons for their repulsion, but nothing justifies violence as a form of dissent, especially when it targets innocent people.
Like any other community, American Muslims may have complaints, but America offers them more freedom and rights than any Muslim country. They can criticize or protest against anyone, including the U.S. government, to express their disagreement.
But they have no right to hurt the innocent.
A growing stream of violence among American Muslims is alarming. They may easily lose a lifetime of accomplishments, including their children -- ask the parents whose children are serving jail sentences for stupid mistakes.
But this behavior is preventable if the Muslim community becomes vigilant and becomes determined to guard itself against outside influence to brainwash their youth.
The ideological fervor is the product of group interaction -- physical or cyber. The youth are being brainwashed at mosques, schools or on the Internet.
All these venues can and must be policed by family, friends and community leaders. The community can work with law enforcement to seek tips and counseling to monitor any behavior change.
Home-grown terrorism is a threat to all Americans. An exploding bomb is an equal-opportunity killer. It does not check the identity of its victims when it goes off. The victims could be Jews, Christians, Muslims or other bystanders.
Self-policing is good citizenship, and it is better than dealing with real police. Families can monitor the home base; community leaders who built the mosques and schools must police their institutions and monitor the activities of their congregants.
Any behavioral change must warrant engaging the individual, questioning the group and inquiring about their activities to make sure the situation is in check.
Law enforcement alone cannot protect all of us all the time. The Muslim community must assume its role in self monitoring.
The Department of Homeland Security should initiate a community partnership with groups and provide training and education to Muslim community leaders and other groups who join in.
Though Muslims have no monopoly on violence, it is their challenge to rid their community of this menace -- to claim that no Muslim will harm his country and that we will protect the homeland, America.

Mohammad S. Shakir is director of the Asian American Advisory Board in the Office of Community Advocacy of Miami-Dade County.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/12/1 ... z0o1S8oa7S

[SBM]

Another one which appeared in Miami Herald
TIMES SQUARE
Muslims condemn bombing attempt
Once again American Muslims are on the defensive. We are fortunate that Faisal Shahzad was an amateur, and many innocent lives were spared. We as a nation should be thankful to Duane Jackson, the New York vendor who alerted police and stopped a disaster.
Our so-called experts, in the past, have blamed the madrassas and the teachings of Islam for the terrorist acts of a few. But Shahzad not only is a naturalized American citizen; he also is educated, well-groomed and a secular person from an affluent family.
Once again, some politicians and talk-show hosts are spreading hate instead of working to find the solution. Shahzad had a beef with our policies, but how is that different from the disgruntled Joseph Stack, who crashed a plane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas? To blame one and not the other is not the American way of equality and justice.
The U.S. Constitution includes Miranda rights, but a ``maverick'' senator was quick to denounce Mirandizing the accused.
I am an American citizen of Indian heritage. Indians had their own 9/11 when the Taj Mahal and other places were terrorized on Nov. 26, 2008. After the attack, elected officials, including right-wing extremists, were careful not to use a broad brush to blame the Muslim community. Rather, they engaged that community.
Compare that with some of our elected officials and Muslim bashers in this country. They maligned U.S. citizens of Pakistani heritage. The accused in the Indian incident of terrorism was not tortured but given full judicial benefits till found guilty -- despite the displeasure of a majority of Indian Muslims. They thought that he did not deserve any mercy.
In America, we have spent millions of dollars since 9/11 employing FBI informants planted in mosques and other places, but it is time to reassess this strategy. Let law enforcement authorities and the political establishment engage in dialogue with American Muslim leadership in policy-making as well as training them to be our eyes and ears to detect radicalizing of young, educated American Muslims. This will prevent them from becoming terrorists.
We should hold judgment on Shahzad until we know more about his motives. If he is found guilty, he should be dealt with accordingly. I am in no way condoning his alleged act, but rushing to judgment is dangerous. If history is any lesson, we will remember that it led us into the Iraq war and increased the radicalization of Muslims and increased hostility toward America around the world.
American Muslims have joined hands with many in condemning the bombing attempt and are thankful to that observant citizen and law enforcement's quick action that prevented another disaster on our soil.
SHABBIR MOTORWALA, Miami

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/09/1 ... z0o1TyHbr9

[ghulam muhammed]

INDIAN HOLOCAUST under British Raj: 1.8 BILLION excess deaths (350 million Muslim), IGNORED by Anglo media
Educated Indians are aware of the ghastly 2-century imposition of British colonialism on India. However, because history is generally written by non-scientists, most Indians are utterly unaware of the horrendous human cost (1.8 billion violent and non-violent avoidable deaths in the period 1757-1947).

The “avoidable deaths” (from violence, deprivation and deprivation-exacerbated disease) in British India totalled 1.5 billion (or 1.8 billion if you include the so-called Native States). About 20% of the victims (about 350 million) were Muslims.

Major British-imposed genocidal events in India included the Great Bengal Famine (10 million dead, 1769-1770), successive famines that killed scores of millions of Indians up to the World War 2 Bengal Famine (6-7 million dead in Bengal and surrounding provinces; see the recent BBC broadcast involving me, Economics Nobel Laureate Professor Amartya Sen and other

A cogent summary has been given by outstanding Indian ecofeminist and physicist Dr Vandana Shiva “The British created a group of owners of land who would then be the rent collectors, who would then finance the empire and meantime people were losing their land. And this had simultaneous impact on hunger because if all your surplus is being extracted to pay taxes then the very producers of food go hungry, which is why 2 million people [6-7 million] died in the Bengal famine of 1942 [1943-1945]. Not because there wasn’t enough rice in India — we were exporting rice for the war — but because of the way the free trade rights of commerce were higher than the rights of people to eat. And the entire force of the British empire was being used to extract the last amount of paddy from the peasants” (see Dr Vandana Shiva, “Colonisation and Independence”:

History ignored yields history repeated and the continuing horrendous carnage of 16 million global avoidable deaths annually (3.7 million in India alone, 5.3 million in South Asia) still stalks the world due to violence, deprivation, disease and LYING. Just as the British Mainstream has largely deleted British atrocities in India out of history books and public consciousness, so Western Mainstream media, politician and academic lying about current Western atrocities in the Occupied Palestinina, Iraqi and Afghan Territories ensures their horrendous continuance.

Racist White Australia was a loyal, racist, “white” part of the racist British Empire and is now a loyal associate of the “politically correct racist” (PC racist) US Empire (that mass murders Asians while pretending that it is bringing them “democracy”) .

The racist White Australian Mainstream Establishment is remorselessly (albeit secretly) committed to a sustained policy of complicity in US-imposed genocides coupled with holocaust ignoring and holocaust denial.

The following self-explanatory letter about the Indian Holocaust, Climate Genocide and Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) holocaust denial has been sent to media, MPs and to the Australian taxpayer-funded ABC, unfortunately the best of the awful Mainstream media in Australia, the Land of Flies, Lies and Slies (spin-based untruths). The silence has been deafening.

"Indeed there are zero (0) ABC broadcast references elicited by Searches of the following binomial terms in quotes for past, present and future atrocities in which Australia has been/is variously complicit (violent and non-violent excess deaths in millions in parentheses): Palestinian Holocaust, Palestinian Genocide (0.3 million, 1967-2009), Iraqi Holocaust, Iraqi Genocide (4.1 million, 1990-2009, 2.3 million 2003-2009), Afghan Holocaust, Afghan Genocide (3-7 million, 2001-2009), Bengali Holocaust (10 million, 1769-1770; 6-7 million, 1943-1945; 3 million, 1971), Indian Holocaust (1.8 billion, 1757-1947), Muslim Holocaust (0.4 billion, 1950-2009) and (prospective) Climate Genocide (10 billion globally, 2 billion Indians this century due to unaddressed, man-made global warming) – indeed there are only 3 ABC broadcast references to “Aboriginal Genocide” (circa 2 million, 1788 onwards; 9,000 annually)" .

Any holocaust denial is repugnant and is also dangerous because “history ignored yields history repeated”. The appalling Australian ABC record of dishonest, racist and unethical holocaust denial demands urgent exposure and redress – Australian holocaust denial threatens Australia, the Developing World and the Planet.

http://sites.google.com/site/muslimholo ... -holocaust

[ghulam muhammed]

VIDEO: Seymour Hersh: US Troops Executing Prisoners in Afghanistan

The journalist who helped break the story that detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq were being tortured by their US jailers told an audience at a journalism conference last month that American soldiers are now executing prisoners in Afghanistan.

New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh also revealed that the Bush Administration had developed advanced plans for a military strike on Iran.

At the Global Investigative Journalism Conference in Geneva, Hersh criticized President Barack Obama, and alleged that US forces are engaged in "battlefield executions."

"What it means is, and I've been told this anecdotally by five or six different people, battlefield executions are taking place," he continued. "Well, if they can't prove they're Taliban, bam. If we don't do it ourselves, we turn them over to the nearby Afghan troops and by the time we walk three feet the bullets are flying. And that's going on now."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=19133

[porus]

Thanks again GM for excellent articles.

ozmujaheed, as concerned citizens of Western countries, Muslims should not shy away from exercising their constitutional right to express criticism of their govenrment's foreign policy just because they are blessed with opportunities which they would not have back 'home'.

I think that you have an obligation to help them enjoy the life as much as possible and prevent your government's greed and terror from denying them the opportunity.

During the Civil Rights struggle in the 1960's, many whites would remind Blacks that they were better off being slaves of Whites than free people in the countries where they came from. This is a retarded mentality.

When Blacks in the USA came out in force against the South African White Apartheid regime, both Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thacher of Britain could not be brought to raise their voice against injustice. Margaret Thatcher was vicious against the leaders of the Commonwealth. How dare they talk about supposed injustice of Apartheid regime when they could not rescue their own people from poverty? She would retort thus at the criticism of Apartheid.

[Fatwa Banker]

I have been told "anecdotally by five or six different people" that swamp land in Louisiana is a great real estate investment . Porus, care to invest ? It is an "excellent" opportunity. We obviously have different standards for journalistic excellence.

On a serious note, are there atrocities happening in Afghanistan with the NATO / US forces? Not a doubt in my mind. Are they as bad and as widespread as during the Talibaan regime ? Not likely...

ozmujaheed, I think that you have an obligation to help them enjoy the life as much as possible and prevent your government's greed and terror from denying them the opportunity.

Who is "them" ?

[anajmi]

We obviously have different standards for journalistic excellence.

You are right. The journatlists you trust are the ones that told you Saddam has WMDs and would be able to launch them in 48 hours. And that he was eating babies. We have a clear idea of your journalistic standards.

[anajmi]

porus,

It is an open secret that the wars in the middle east were fought to steal oil and secure other kinds of resources for american corporations. What should also be looked at is that these wars are actually being fought against Islam and its economic system. The spread of Islam threatens the economic system perpetrated by these greedy bankers. As long as the Muslim leaders in the middle east are the puppets, the americans are fine but once they start turning, they need to be taken out. Saddam is an example.

[rania]

INDIAN HOLOCAUST under British Raj: 1.8 BILLION excess deaths (350 million Muslim), IGNORED by Anglo media
Educated Indians are aware of the ghastly 2-century imposition of British colonialism on India. However, because history is generally written by non-scientists, most Indians are utterly unaware of the horrendous human cost (1.8 billion violent and non-violent avoidable deaths in the period 1757-1947).

The “avoidable deaths” (from violence, deprivation and deprivation-exacerbated disease) in British India totalled 1.5 billion (or 1.8 billion if you include the so-called Native States). About 20% of the victims (about 350 million) were Muslims.

Major British-imposed genocidal events in India included the Great Bengal Famine (10 million dead, 1769-1770), successive famines that killed scores of millions of Indians up to the World War 2 Bengal Famine (6-7 million dead in Bengal and surrounding provinces; see the recent BBC broadcast involving me, Economics Nobel Laureate Professor Amartya Sen and other

A cogent summary has been given by outstanding Indian ecofeminist and physicist Dr Vandana Shiva “The British created a group of owners of land who would then be the rent collectors, who would then finance the empire and meantime people were losing their land. And this had simultaneous impact on hunger because if all your surplus is being extracted to pay taxes then the very producers of food go hungry, which is why 2 million people [6-7 million] died in the Bengal famine of 1942 [1943-1945]. Not because there wasn’t enough rice in India — we were exporting rice for the war — but because of the way the free trade rights of commerce were higher than the rights of people to eat. And the entire force of the British empire was being used to extract the last amount of paddy from the peasants” (see Dr Vandana Shiva, “Colonisation and Independence”:


http://sites.google.com/site/muslimholo ... -holocaust

Now this is plain clutching at straws !

[rania]

On a serious note, are there atrocities happening in Afghanistan with the NATO / US forces? Not a doubt in my mind. Are they as bad and as widespread as during the Talibaan regime ? Not likely...

Quite simple to know the answer to this question !

Count the number of people killed by Taliban before 2001 and then count the number of deaths related to the immoral war imposed upon the Afghans ! You will have a clear winner.

[ozmujaheed]

Porus I am not claiming the west is faultless but questioning this threads implication that the killings are intentionally executed as a state agenda like genocide in Serbia. I am pointing to balance views and stop using radicalized alarming statements.

Anajmi and Raina...based on your anti-western attitudes and so called logic do you hold by same views that India has no justification to hit terror camps in Pakistan to avenge 26/11. That a Muslim soldier in Indian Armed Force should think twice before engaging a Pakistani opponent just because both are Muslims...

Shazad is a disgrace like Kasab and should be punished severely and their moral supporters condemned. He and his background directors singlehandedly destroyed the hard work millions of Muslims try everyday to bridge relationship with non-Muslims. Their actions will not wear out the democratic secular western society that I represent.

Those who are stuck in history and grieving and regurgitating evil and hatred to promulgate segregation, fortunately billions are optimistic of the future where radicalism and fanaticism decreases both in Bohras and Muslim ummah.

[rania]

Porus I am not claiming the west is faultless but questioning this threads implication that the killings are intentionally executed as a state agenda like genocide in Serbia. I am pointing to balance views and stop using radicalized alarming statements.

Anajmi and Raina...based on your anti-western attitudes and so called logic do you hold by same views that India has no justification to hit terror camps in Pakistan to avenge 26/11. That a Muslim soldier in Indian Armed Force should think twice before engaging a Pakistani opponent just because both are Muslims...

Shazad is a disgrace like Kasab and should be punished severely and their moral supporters condemned. He and his background directors singlehandedly destroyed the hard work millions of Muslims try everyday to bridge relationship with non-Muslims. Their actions will not wear out the democratic secular western society that I represent.

Those who are stuck in history and grieving and regurgitating evil and hatred to promulgate segregation, fortunately billions are optimistic of the future where radicalism and fanaticism decreases both in Bohras and Muslim ummah.

And again you appear with your idiotic claims of me having anti-western attitude ! Last time you tried such tricks , you never replied back !

Yes you are right , India has no justification to attack so called terror camps in Pakistan.Just like USA didn't attack the country of the 9/11 bombers if you believe the official story anyways.

[ozmujaheed]

rania..to answer your questions when murders are proven in western armed forces the soldiers get disciplined, you may argue with the severity of the punishment. And yes the Office of the PM is responsible for the deaths of Muslims in Gujarat and yes one day his Office bearer will have to say sorry, may be not the individual if Manmohan is currently the PM.

If the attitude you portray is what some Muslims in India believe that their loyalty to Pakistani Muslims is greater then loyalty to secular motherland India then no wonder BJP has a point.

You are wrong, if there is sufficient proof that 26/11 was masterminded by Pakistani support they need to be made accountable such that Pakistani public and civilized liberals sincerely get rid of the militancy within their borders like Indonesia and Malaysia successfully did with Oz assistance so that the West does not need to clean up Pakistans dirty laundry militarily that you feel offended about! Others words correct yourselves before others are forced to do it for you.

[porus]

There was an attack by Maoists today on a passenger train in West Bengal. The train was derailed killing a 100 people and injuring many.

Since 'Islamist' terrorists were not involved, do not expect wall to wall coverage on CNN about this atrocity.

[Muslim First]

There was an attack by Maoists today on a passenger train in West Bengal. The train was derailed killing a 100 people and injuring many.

There is a sad account of a Muslim Family which parished.

On first-ever train ride, twins die in each other's arms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 987136.cms

[ozmujaheed]

Rania after all this I was dealing with a kiddish mind ! I will ignore you hereafter

You trivialize Muslim deaths where the government machinery was slow and hesitant that even German MPs to this date have condemned..to murders and crimes by individuals.

Fantasy derives pleasure..in your case its not even close ..and anyway there are many other sites on the web if I was here looking for cyber fantasies

[rania]

Ozmujaheed not even one word on the situations in Malaysia and Indonesia ?

Can't say I am surprised !

[SBM]

American Media Bias for Israel. Interesting to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiyyp9cZdY0

[Aarif]

This is an interesting thread. I enjoyed reading it overall. We have finally ventured into un-chartered waters as far as this forum is concerned. In my opinion, there are few important points that we must consider about the west and muslims in general in-order to understand the current situation. Let's start with West. Supporters of west should note the following important points about them:

1) The western countries have inflicted more violence on the human race than anyone else. Examples are first and second world wars, mass masacre of jews etc.
2) The Western countries like Britiain, France, Holland, Portugal etc. have ruled the world at the barrel of gun. The british proudly use to say that power flows from the barrel of gun. Even though West always tom-toms about peace and prosparity they have been the ones who have given guns and nuclear bombs that can destroy the world in minutes. This makes them a timeless example of hypocracy and selfishness
3) They have used the rest of the world as and when required for their own convenience and selfish motives. E.g. creating state of Israel by dislocating the Arabs after world war II to support their zionist partners, taking control of affairs of middle eastern countries to gain access to oil, enslaving of africans to accomplish manual labor and satisfy their lust, colonizing weak countries to loot their rich resources and the so on and so forth
4) US displays a high level of double standards by being the largest manufacturer of arms on one hand and a promoter of peace and democracy on other hand. US is in the business of creating and managing wars. The arms industry of US is so powerful that no one in or outside US dares to oppose or stop them. Most of the missiles used by Saddam against Israel were manufactured in US. All the weapons sold to middle easter countries like Saudi are made in USA. The Talibanis like Osama were trained by US.
5) The West has sole expertise in using the media to elevate and portray its image the way it wants. They actually make you
think and believe what they want you to think and believe. This might have nothing to do with the stalk reality. E.g. US wants you to believe that it went to Iraq with the sole motive of removing tyranny of Saddam Hussain and help the Iraqis
establish democracy in their country.
6) The West even uses religion to acheive its selfish goals. E.g. when they wanted to eliminate jews who were growing in
terms of wealth and power, they eliminated them by using a simple religious excuse by saying that "because the jews killed
Jesus Christ we have the right to kill them". And remember, ironically these same western countries blame muslims for killing in the name of religion.

Now let's look at the Muslim world. We need to accept the following facts about Muslims in general:
1) Lack of proper leadership and direction among muslims. E.g. someone had posted a list of most influential muslims who have maximum influence on the life of muslims accross the world. This list consisted of kings and fundamentalists who are least interested in the well being of common muslims. The muslims in general need to decide whom they should allow to influence their lives. Common muslims in countries like India treat tyrants like Saddam Hussain as heroes. I have seen photographs of Saddam in muslim shops. As long as muslims will not learn to distinguish between right and wrong they will always be exploited by the West.
2) There is very little or almost no unity among muslims in general. Ironically the muslims would kill each other in the name of Islam. The dis-unity among muslims is one of the biggest problems that our ummah is facing today.
3) The muslims in general need to change their outlook regarding science, education and modern advancements. The human race has come a long way. We need to move forward instead of sticking to same age old practices that hinders growth and progress.

Thus those who think that the West is an epitome of freedom and democracy need to dig a bit deeper. I do agree that muslims in general have some concrete problems but those can be solved among ourselves without allowing the so called western peace makers to take advantage of the situation.

[Fatwa Banker]

I do agree that muslims in general have some concrete problems but those can be solved among ourselves .

What peace pipe are you smoking ? Whatever it is, must be good so please share it with Jaahil as well.

[anajmi]

I'd rather smoke the "spread freedom and democracy" pipe.