Reformists Convention In Udaipur

[like_minded]

what if our origin is from hindu its what we are now which counts and not what you we used to be.

Profrog

If you are so hell bent on disowning your hindu roots, why on earth do you guys perform hindu rituals? Like, wadhawano and worshipping your moulas photo??

[Al Zulfiqar]

Originally posted by profrog:
[QB] its us dawoodi bohras under guidance of our moula tus who are progressing in all aspects to the extent what we wear and how we look,today we have a cultural identity and are recognised by all as bohras, /QB]

frog, show us with statistics where bohras have progressed BECAUSE of the syedna, and not because of their own resourcefulness or business inteliigence. show us how many masjids syedna has built with money from his own pocket, show how many poor widows and orphans he has helped, show how many schools and colleges he has established, show us how many charities he has set up to help the underpriviledged bohras, in fact show me a single bohra anywhere in the world who can come and claim that the syedna helped him with anything!!!

all the syedna does is give advice, business karo(Hardware), namaaz padho, vajebaat bharo, mara vaste ghanu jeevo gao, etc. nothing but bull!

as for dress, is islam for stupid bohras only the zahiri dress, not the inner batini spirituality? this syedna and his rotten family have only guided the bohras by their own example to loot, eat like gluttons, behave like uncivilised heathens with no regard for the poor or deprived, to lie, to take what is not yours, to abuse and be full of hatred for others?

[mohammed_truthseeker]

Wasalaam,

Bohras in all the cities in India I have visited and went to the Jamat do not have any behavioural ethics. I have been to Pune, Chennai, Bangalore, Indore, Surat Jamaats. And everywhere I find them totally lost in their ownself with no consideration as to who is around them and in what state. These days I am in the US. I havent gone to any jamaat over here yet. Let me see, how people over here are.

By the way I am still waiting for the scanned copy of the newspaper from Udaipurresident.

[mohammed_truthseeker]

Further to add to my above post, the way the bohras form thaals and wait for food to come, I mean it is disgusting... They pus and shovel each other for thaal space and I mean its really disgusting to find a place and sit and eat peacefully, specially during Ramadan and Muharrum Jamans.

[SBM]

Udaipurpresident
It has been long 14 days since you promised to post the newspaper article.
Can you please provide the proof of what you accused the good people of Udaipur.
This sounds familiar to the accusations by Gulf and then after prodding he decided to retract his accusations.
Is a retraction coming for you Mr. President?

[udaipurresident]

Originally posted by omabharti:
Udaipurpresident
It has been long 14 days since you promised to post the newspaper article.
Can you please provide the proof of what you accused the good people of Udaipur.
This sounds familiar to the accusations by Gulf and then after prodding he decided to retract his accusations.
Is a retraction coming for you Mr. President?

Bhai oma,
If you consider my silence similar to an accusation, then i cannot help because i know thatwhat i had said in my earlier posts & i am sure i can remove the doubts only my getting a copy.I have already stated that im now out of udaipur & i shall do the needful ASAP when i get back to udaipur.
And if you so serious then why dont you comment on my post of gandhigiri and my point that we should also seek sorry for all the dadagiri that we reformists had done during the community split in 1970's in udaipur, afterall reformists in udaipur cleary outnumbered the orthodox at that time be it in head count/dadagiri/gundagiri etc. Why dont you raise that point also.

[SBM]

Br. Udaipurpresident
I do not live in Udaipu, I never visited Udaipur
the only reason I am asking to see the proof because you called yourself a reformist who has turned against reform movement. Excuse me for being a skeptical but I have seen these kinds of things before. On this board, people have come with tall claims but when asked for proof, they disappeared, the latest being the Mojiza at Burhanpur, when confronted with proof from aburhani.com, the original writer disappeared.
CAN YOU PLEASE CLARIFY WHEN APPROX YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO POST IT SO I WILL NOT ASK AGAIN TILL THAT TIME.
Sorry but when you talk about Dadagiri, I do not think even Italian Mafia can out do the Kothari Mafiasos and Kotharis do in the name of religion.

[East Africawalla]

The people in the photos look like a lost kaflo , no identity , bored , lost cause , no vision, no mission ,dejected , was jamaan served to this people, they would have looked happier

[udaipurresident]

Originally posted by omabharti:

CAN YOU PLEASE CLARIFY WHEN APPROX YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO POST IT SO I WILL NOT ASK AGAIN TILL THAT TIME.
Sorry but when you talk about Dadagiri, I do not think even Italian Mafia can out do the Kothari Mafiasos and Kotharis do in the name of religion.

Bhai OMA
Honestly speaking, right now as per my travel schedule im not in a position to return before 25 april'07.But anyway i am trying to get a copy(tough not materialised yet) so that this episode does not get drageed like a sas bahu serial.
Regarding dadagiri, i again would like to say that todays scenario in udaipur is in favor of orthodox because of a couple of reasons:strength,political connections & financial strength to name a few.But trust me( & u can confirm this from any udaipuri who has a first hand experience of those times) br. OMA all these factors were heavily swung in the favor of reformists in the early 70's

[SBM]

Br. Udaipurpresident
Thanks and I take you for your words and I will not ask. Regarding problems in Udaipur, as I said I have never been to Udaipur but is it possible that reform jamaat might have been infiltrated by kothari goons to discredit the work of good people in the past. Kotharis are capable of doing such things.
Kotharis are no different than Britishers and now Americans on applying their DIVIDE and RULE policies.

[Humsafar]

Udaipurresident,

Agreed, the reformists had the strength of numbers in the seventies but not political connections or financial clout.

As I have said many times before, to become and remain a reformist one needs to have courage, commitment and moral focus. People who have abandoned the reform movement for one reason or the other lacked these traits and in order to justify their betrayal always find it convenient to blame the reform movement. And nobody is claiming that the reform movement is perfect, but if you keep focus on its main objectives and its historical context you'll realise that it is an unprecedented challenge against the priesthood in Bohra history.

You can either be part of the solution and help strengthen our core values or keep carping about little things of which there will no dearth no matter how perfect the movement becomes. You're welcome to be pest if that's what gives you satisfaction.

Regarding dadagiri, yes reformist were militant then and are so even now. And we make no apologies for it. The militancy was a response to the beating and and humiliation our people suffered at the hands of the Kohtar's goons. Remember how the women of Udaipur were treated in Galiakot? Do you expect that we were to accept that atrocity lying down? The pathetic condition of our community is precisely because there not enough dadagiri to go around. Too many people are too spineless to qualify as humans. As long as the bohras don't learn to stand up to the bully little will change. The purpose of the reform movement - and especially the Udaipur revolt - is to show them that this can be done, to give them courage and perhaps provide the trigger which will make them act.

[Aarif]

Too many people are too spineless to qualify as humans.

So now you are going to decide who is human and who is not.. Is it???

[Humsafar]

Arif,

Are you itching for a fight or are you too thick to understand metaphor?

Humans are humans because of their straight spine (homo erectus), and being spineless means one who cannot stand erect and figuratively it means one who lacks guts, moral courage. My statement must be understood in the figurative sense.

Oh! the stupidity of the literal mind. This is exactly why the Quran is dangerous in the hands of people like you. It is a book of metaphor, and parable and allegory and it must be understood at that level - and not taken literally like most conservative muslims do.

[Aarif]

Oh! the stupidity of the literal mind.

Oh! so now you will decide the stupidity of a literal mind...

BTW: What made you think I was taking it literally?? Oh maybe this explains the stupidity of a matured free thinking mind... Does it???

Anyways coming to the point.. I clearly got what you were trying to say... But do you know for sure why most mainstream bohras don't want to revolt against Syedna??? Dawoodi bohras cannot identify themselves with other mainstream muslims.. And the reformists are too low in numbers to provide a thriving social atmosphere for the mainstream bohras... This essentially means that going out of the community is ceasing to exist because there is nowhere else to go... So right now the most important binding factor is the identity which bohras have being the part of this unique community (no pun intended) which is so different from other muslim communities more then anything else... You provide them with this social atmosphere and then see how soon they will ditch Syedna and join you... So its not the spine its the community spice that is driving them..

[Above Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

You literally interpreted what Aareef was saying didn't you?

People like you and porus have no idea about "literal interpretations" so you should keep this "literal" bs under control. Try not to play the same hand over and over again.

[Humsafar]

Arif,

Bohras do not have to "go out of the community" to challenge the priesthood. This may apply only in the scenario where only one individual revolts at a time, which is not a very effective strategy either for the individual or for the movement.

But if people decide to revolt en mass as they did in Udaipur they don't have to worry about a lack of "thriving social atmpstphere". If one town after another goes after the kothar it's the mullahs who will be out of the community and not the bohras. In the end it all comes to the critical mass, the right moment and the courage to take advantage of the situation. Recent bohra history is replete with instances of failed opportunities - if people had little courage and unity there could have many Udaipurs around the world.

[Humsafar]

Anajmi, you know my beef with you is not that you are literal but rather that you're not literal enough. You pick and choose where you'll follow the quran literally and you pick and choose where you'll not follow it literally. Your's a faith of convenience.

[Above Average Bohra]

It is a book of metaphor, and parable and allegory and it must be understood at that level

And then you turn around and say that Osama is a true muslim and others who do not want to kill and want to live peacefully are not following the quran. What kind of a person are you? Confused or manipulative?

[Humsafar]

See my response above.

[Above Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

So you want me to interpret the quran as per your guidance? I pick and choose what is followed in which way as per the guidance of the prophet and the learned people of Islam. The last person I want interpreting the quran for me is you.

[Above Average Bohra]

And according to you, the killing part needs to be followed literally while the part about being righteous, praying, fasting, zakat, hajj is all metaphorical and allegorical right?

[Humsafar]

No, what it means is that it being the word of God you cannot pick and choose. Take it all or leave it all. If you're selective then it shows that your faith in God an his religion is not sufficient.

[East Africawalla]

why would anyone try to infiltrate, you are doing a good job of screwing things up yourselves

[Above Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

You are not the right person to be telling us how our own religion needs to be followed. Even you said that you send you children to the madrassa, that is neither taking it all nor leaving it all. Being a progressive that wants to maintain the post of the Dai as the representative of Imam and being a disbeliever in God and religion at the same time is neither taking it all nor leaving it all.

That is me scoring some cheap points.

So it is ok when you decide to pick and choose but the believer is supposed to follow your interpretation of the quran completely? There is no take it all or leave it all. You are not that stupid, are you? There are certain aspects of the quran that are allegorical, they will have to be treated that way and not as per your whims and fancies. If we were to follow the quran as per your guidance we would be doomed. Maybe we are already, and that is because of people like you.

[Humsafar]

Anajmi,

Your humour is your only saving grace, and just because of that God will grant you jannah despite your shortcomings.

As for me, (and here I explain myself again, probably for the last time) religion wise I consider the core values of Islam to be universal and accept them wholeheartedly. By accident of birth, my personal history and background happen to be Muslim. I had no choice in the matter. I accept certain rituals and customs as part of my Muslim culture and identity, nothing more nothing less. As for madarsaa, I'm not the only one who makes decision in my house, unfortunately

As for the Quran, I do not make it my business to tell anyone how to follow their religion. But if someone insists that this book is an infallible, divine word of God then I feel obliged to point it out when they take some words more seriously than others. So now you accept that certain aspect of the Quran are allegorical, that is you're admitting to the taawil interpretation. Even so, who is to decide what aspect is allegorical and what is not. If you leave this decision to man then you're profaning God's word and making nonsense of the divine decree. See the dilemma the faithful face?

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

As pointed out on this site by many people earlier there are lot of poor in the bohra community. These people have nothing to loose... And if you see the history GRT revolutions were brought about by the most poor masses. Going by this the bohras are also human beings... The atrocities of kothar are well known... Still why they are not revolting??? The social angle is very important... They are getting something out of the community in return which is stopping them from going against it...

Also, the reform movement so far is one town wonder i.e. Udaipur. After Udaipur no other town/city has embraced reforms openly... Now please do not tell me that only the people living in Udaipur have the "Spine" and "balls" and others are nincompoops... And honestly what according to you is the most logical reason for this??? If you will say that they do not have the balls to revolt then I do not believe you and the discussion is over...

Br. Anajmi,

Humsafar has this very funny habit of quickly jumping to conclusions without thinking... He is the one who will take everything literally and then try and pass on the buck to others... So I was not surprised when he wrote that...

[Humsafar]

Arif,

I'm aware of the socially aspects and I do not want trivialise them. There are two things that are different about Udaipur. 1) History / turn of events was in its favour. 2) People there somehow found the courage to take advantage of the situation.

Several such opportunities present themselves every now and then in many towns but people fail to mobilise it, and a lack of courage is one major factor. The recent revolt in Banswara is a case in point.

...He is the one who will take everything literally and then try and pass on the buck to others...

You are funny, but not in a good way. Read what you wrote again and tell me what was not literal about it. But if you want to blame me for your literal mindedness then that too is fine by me.

[Aarif]

You are funny, but not in a good way. Read what you wrote again and tell me what was not literal about it. But if you want to blame me for your literal mindedness then that too is fine by me.

Humsafar,

Again you took it literally.. You are just looking at this thread and denying your literal mindedness... I am talking about all our past discussions where many a times I felt that you took the words literally.. I would have even commented on it then... If you will dig out the posts you will find it... Or in your spiritual lingo "Seek and you shall find"

[Humsafar]

You agreed with Anajmi that I took your comment on this thread literally. So let's talk about that first then we'll move to past discussions. Even so, there nothing to seek, because you've not pointed out my "literal understanding" before in any threads.

[Aarif]

Several such opportunities present themselves every now and then in many towns but people fail to mobilise it, and a lack of courage is one major factor.

This is a more sophisticated way of saying that people don't have balls... I do not believe that and hence the discussion is over...