Dear Inquistive,
The statement of the mustajib and the mualim is paraphased from Imam Jafir Sadiq in al'Kafi. If his teachings make you vomit...you have some real soul searching to do.
Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
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Average Bohra
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Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
It is evident that the notion of accountability is foreign to you and thereby you are unable to discuss the issue. Accountability has nothing to do with guilt or innocence or atrocities or socio –economic structures. If you ask yourself the question which of the religions and political systems above use someone else as an excuse for their lack of progress [if any], democratic institutions or any contribution to society, they can generally answer that without blaming someone else [accountability]. Perhaps now you can better understand the issue and answer your own question as to why other religions /ideologies shouldn’t be required to do the same. They don't need to..they make do with what they have or were dealt with.
It is one thing to be a pundit and document the world’s problems, it is another to recommend solutions; accountability and taking responsibility is a start. I am curious, which idealistic Utopia do you live in that guarantees social and economic equality and why should it ? The communist tried that and were successful in ensuring that everybody was equally poor and the failed system eventually imploded !
It is evident that the notion of accountability is foreign to you and thereby you are unable to discuss the issue. Accountability has nothing to do with guilt or innocence or atrocities or socio –economic structures. If you ask yourself the question which of the religions and political systems above use someone else as an excuse for their lack of progress [if any], democratic institutions or any contribution to society, they can generally answer that without blaming someone else [accountability]. Perhaps now you can better understand the issue and answer your own question as to why other religions /ideologies shouldn’t be required to do the same. They don't need to..they make do with what they have or were dealt with.
It is one thing to be a pundit and document the world’s problems, it is another to recommend solutions; accountability and taking responsibility is a start. I am curious, which idealistic Utopia do you live in that guarantees social and economic equality and why should it ? The communist tried that and were successful in ensuring that everybody was equally poor and the failed system eventually imploded !
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serendipity
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Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Self-actualization is required -- much as that concept grates against your nerves, folks! But lets be clear, that's certainly NOT the same thing as so-called "democracy" where the majority of people still partake of a "herd mentality".
Progressives and "average mumineen" alike simply ignore what they can't "see" because it's much easier to be spiritually "lazy" then to make an effort to seek out the truth for yourself. Whether you're fascist, communist, democratic, "progressive" or an "average bohra", when you're part of the CROWD the tendency is always to condemn or ridicule your group's chosen "scapegoat", rather than make any real personal progress in your life!
In CONTRAST consider those incredible Tibetans, who have learned to access (through their faith) "Lamas" who have been physically inaccessible to them for years, and whose whereabouts in many cases are unknown! And they have learned to DO this in the face of an oppression, repression, and torture that puts ALL of our so-called bohra "grievances" in the shade.
Progressives and "average mumineen" alike simply ignore what they can't "see" because it's much easier to be spiritually "lazy" then to make an effort to seek out the truth for yourself. Whether you're fascist, communist, democratic, "progressive" or an "average bohra", when you're part of the CROWD the tendency is always to condemn or ridicule your group's chosen "scapegoat", rather than make any real personal progress in your life!
In CONTRAST consider those incredible Tibetans, who have learned to access (through their faith) "Lamas" who have been physically inaccessible to them for years, and whose whereabouts in many cases are unknown! And they have learned to DO this in the face of an oppression, repression, and torture that puts ALL of our so-called bohra "grievances" in the shade.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
Now you change tack and, as usual, misinterpret. The atrocities/crimes etc. that I listed are usually committed in the name of certain beliefs/ideologies - and the perpetrators invoke these beliefs/ideologies to explain their actions and refuse to admit "personal accountability". As a corollary to this - like a Siamese twin - comes the blaming game which in more enlightened circles is called "blaming the victim". Here are some examples:
Massacre of native in the new world: Blaming them for not believing in a Christian god, being less than human.
Colonialism: Blaming natives for being uncivilised (I think it's Jomo Kenyatta who said this: when they - missionaries - came we had the land and they had the bible, and now we have the bible and they have the land.)
Hitler and Nazism: Blaming Jews for being inferior, clannish, too successful, dominating economy.
Zionism: Claiming that Jews were people without land, Palestine was land without people. Blaming Palestinians for living in their "god given land", treating them as less than human
Crusades: Roman church blaming the Turks for controlling the Holy Land
Ku Klux Klan: Blaming blacks, Jews, browns, yellows for being non-Christian inferior races
Capitalism: Captains of industry blaming the poor for being poor because the are lazy
Communism: Blaming western capitalist pressures for lack of freedom, dismal economy
One could go on and on. The point is that all cultures/ideologies play the "blame game" to avoid explanation for their lack of "personal accountability" in their actions and/or state of affairs. It just that the more dominant cultures (Western in our time) are brazen about what they do, and by virtue of their domination, their ideas, ideologies and blaming games find ready acceptance among people like you. Internalising the values and rationales of ruling ideologies is just a fancy way of saying: if you can't beat them, join them. As I mentioned in a previous thread, if Hitler had won the day you would be singing his praises and extolling the virtues of fascism.
As for poor and oppressed cultures, the lack of accountability you talk about does not exclusively pertain to Islam but to much of the so-called third world. The reasons for their current condition can partly and rightly be traced back to colonialism, corporate capitalism, military domination, unfair trade practices, and more recently globalisation. Poor countries blame the rich countries for their condition. And there is an element of truth in it. But you wouldn't know or even care.
Now you change tack and, as usual, misinterpret. The atrocities/crimes etc. that I listed are usually committed in the name of certain beliefs/ideologies - and the perpetrators invoke these beliefs/ideologies to explain their actions and refuse to admit "personal accountability". As a corollary to this - like a Siamese twin - comes the blaming game which in more enlightened circles is called "blaming the victim". Here are some examples:
Massacre of native in the new world: Blaming them for not believing in a Christian god, being less than human.
Colonialism: Blaming natives for being uncivilised (I think it's Jomo Kenyatta who said this: when they - missionaries - came we had the land and they had the bible, and now we have the bible and they have the land.)
Hitler and Nazism: Blaming Jews for being inferior, clannish, too successful, dominating economy.
Zionism: Claiming that Jews were people without land, Palestine was land without people. Blaming Palestinians for living in their "god given land", treating them as less than human
Crusades: Roman church blaming the Turks for controlling the Holy Land
Ku Klux Klan: Blaming blacks, Jews, browns, yellows for being non-Christian inferior races
Capitalism: Captains of industry blaming the poor for being poor because the are lazy
Communism: Blaming western capitalist pressures for lack of freedom, dismal economy
One could go on and on. The point is that all cultures/ideologies play the "blame game" to avoid explanation for their lack of "personal accountability" in their actions and/or state of affairs. It just that the more dominant cultures (Western in our time) are brazen about what they do, and by virtue of their domination, their ideas, ideologies and blaming games find ready acceptance among people like you. Internalising the values and rationales of ruling ideologies is just a fancy way of saying: if you can't beat them, join them. As I mentioned in a previous thread, if Hitler had won the day you would be singing his praises and extolling the virtues of fascism.
As for poor and oppressed cultures, the lack of accountability you talk about does not exclusively pertain to Islam but to much of the so-called third world. The reasons for their current condition can partly and rightly be traced back to colonialism, corporate capitalism, military domination, unfair trade practices, and more recently globalisation. Poor countries blame the rich countries for their condition. And there is an element of truth in it. But you wouldn't know or even care.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
I agree with serendipity.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Just to add to serendipity's comment. There are two aspects to human life,
1) a need for personal quest to find meaning, enlightenment, nirvana (or whatever that makes you happy)
2) a need to live in groups/communities - where "herd mentality" overtakes the weak and uncritical (read majority)
It's rare that these two needs mesh with each other. The challengers to dominant ideologies are invariably ridiculed, persecuted and sidelined. But the irony is that these same challengers when victorious spawn their own orthodoxies over a period of time. This applies as much to religions as to political systems. Bohra progressives are no exception to this inevitable process. Therefore great men have called for "eternal vigilance" and "permanent revolution".
1) a need for personal quest to find meaning, enlightenment, nirvana (or whatever that makes you happy)
2) a need to live in groups/communities - where "herd mentality" overtakes the weak and uncritical (read majority)
It's rare that these two needs mesh with each other. The challengers to dominant ideologies are invariably ridiculed, persecuted and sidelined. But the irony is that these same challengers when victorious spawn their own orthodoxies over a period of time. This applies as much to religions as to political systems. Bohra progressives are no exception to this inevitable process. Therefore great men have called for "eternal vigilance" and "permanent revolution".
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
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Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
Since you have digressed from the accountability issue, I can now address your other comments and I must ask you again to answer my question:
which idealistic Utopia do you live in that guarantees social and economic equality and why should it ?
"Internalising the values and rationales of ruling ideologies is just a fancy way of saying: if you can't beat them, join them. " You are making the assumption that the ruling ideologies are stuffed down people's throats and ignoring the fact that often the ideologies become "ruling" because of the election process that you appear to have no respect for.
"if Hitler had won the day you would be singing his praises and extolling the virtues of fascism"
Important to note that Hitler didn't, because of the US and the American so-called "ruling ideologies".
"Ku Klux Klan: Blaming blacks, Jews, browns, yellows for being non-Christian inferior races" Now you have jumped to prejudice ..what is your point ? Which society / system is devoid of prejudice ?
"Communism: Blaming western capitalist pressures for lack of freedom, dismal economy" Yes they did and imploded because of a failed system, now they too have embraced "capitalist pressures "
Freedom and democracy, though not perfect, is the natural state of being. It is obvious from your posts that you are disgruntled about your anti-democratic and communist Utopias failing.
Since you have digressed from the accountability issue, I can now address your other comments and I must ask you again to answer my question:
which idealistic Utopia do you live in that guarantees social and economic equality and why should it ?
"Internalising the values and rationales of ruling ideologies is just a fancy way of saying: if you can't beat them, join them. " You are making the assumption that the ruling ideologies are stuffed down people's throats and ignoring the fact that often the ideologies become "ruling" because of the election process that you appear to have no respect for.
"if Hitler had won the day you would be singing his praises and extolling the virtues of fascism"
Important to note that Hitler didn't, because of the US and the American so-called "ruling ideologies".
"Ku Klux Klan: Blaming blacks, Jews, browns, yellows for being non-Christian inferior races" Now you have jumped to prejudice ..what is your point ? Which society / system is devoid of prejudice ?
"Communism: Blaming western capitalist pressures for lack of freedom, dismal economy" Yes they did and imploded because of a failed system, now they too have embraced "capitalist pressures "
Freedom and democracy, though not perfect, is the natural state of being. It is obvious from your posts that you are disgruntled about your anti-democratic and communist Utopias failing.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
Funny that you should accuse me of digressing from the topic. But I can live with that - I'm all too familiar with that kind of intellectual dishonesty.
As for "social and economic equality" , pls read my comments carefully. I said it the context of capitalism which in its worst aspects gives rise to "appalling social and economic inequality". It is a statement of fact. By no stretch of the imagination does it mean that one is making a case for complete equality or Utopia? But this is the problem with unreconstructed capitalist hangers-on cast in Ayn Rand mould - you become tetchy and jumpy at the mere mention of word "equality", your hackles rise as if the foundation of your very being is under attack. You hurl the word Utopia at your critics hoping that that would explain everything. It's a cheap trick. And an old one too.
As for the rest of your comments, the more you talk about them the more you make a public display of your ignorance. Parroting platitudes is no substitute for an argument.
Funny that you should accuse me of digressing from the topic. But I can live with that - I'm all too familiar with that kind of intellectual dishonesty.
As for "social and economic equality" , pls read my comments carefully. I said it the context of capitalism which in its worst aspects gives rise to "appalling social and economic inequality". It is a statement of fact. By no stretch of the imagination does it mean that one is making a case for complete equality or Utopia? But this is the problem with unreconstructed capitalist hangers-on cast in Ayn Rand mould - you become tetchy and jumpy at the mere mention of word "equality", your hackles rise as if the foundation of your very being is under attack. You hurl the word Utopia at your critics hoping that that would explain everything. It's a cheap trick. And an old one too.
As for the rest of your comments, the more you talk about them the more you make a public display of your ignorance. Parroting platitudes is no substitute for an argument.
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Average Bohra
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Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
You can’t get away with gussying your biased opinions as fact when they have no basis in reality. The fact is that non-capitalistic systems in their best aspects can give rise to “appalling social and economic inequality”; the more common result being equal poverty for all without access to basic human subsistence needs such as access to food and medicine.
You are correct in that the notion of forced equality is very alarming to me as it is a proven failed system and ignores personal accomplishments and rewards for hard work or effort. Artificially induced equality is an unnatural state of being and gives the government entirely too much power in controlling our lives.
You can’t get away with gussying your biased opinions as fact when they have no basis in reality. The fact is that non-capitalistic systems in their best aspects can give rise to “appalling social and economic inequality”; the more common result being equal poverty for all without access to basic human subsistence needs such as access to food and medicine.
You are correct in that the notion of forced equality is very alarming to me as it is a proven failed system and ignores personal accomplishments and rewards for hard work or effort. Artificially induced equality is an unnatural state of being and gives the government entirely too much power in controlling our lives.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
Capitalism gives rise to "appalling social and economic inequality". This is a reality.
When I state this fact, does it imply I'm rooting for some kind of "equal poverty for all"? I don't think so.
So what's your beef?
As for hard work - that perennial myth - there are tens of millions of hard working people around the world (including in the US) who can't manage to eke out a living wage - despite busting their backsides day in and day out.
As for personal accomplishments - money is the only measure a capitalist/consumerist system recognises. Accomplishments that gives an individual the greatest satisfaction are those that gives one a sense of fulfillment, a sort of spiritual high. Human progress can largely be attributed motives other than money. For example, great art, scientific discoveries etc. were accomplished without a motive for money or profit. (Bungee jumping, $30; discovery of the force of gravity, priceless).
Capitalism gives rise to "appalling social and economic inequality". This is a reality.
When I state this fact, does it imply I'm rooting for some kind of "equal poverty for all"? I don't think so.
So what's your beef?
As for hard work - that perennial myth - there are tens of millions of hard working people around the world (including in the US) who can't manage to eke out a living wage - despite busting their backsides day in and day out.
As for personal accomplishments - money is the only measure a capitalist/consumerist system recognises. Accomplishments that gives an individual the greatest satisfaction are those that gives one a sense of fulfillment, a sort of spiritual high. Human progress can largely be attributed motives other than money. For example, great art, scientific discoveries etc. were accomplished without a motive for money or profit. (Bungee jumping, $30; discovery of the force of gravity, priceless).
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kabeer19922001
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Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
These were the type of discussions that took place prior to the advent of M52, Trance etc.