while jews are the people who existed before christians and muslims its by natural laws of evolution that they are more clever than others.the brains of the jews had more time to evolve than the brains of the christians and muslims.
the simple fact that muslims had spent all the time backbiting, creating differences and calling others wrong has taken them in the wrong direction.now also we see that there is no unity among the muslim umma.what is the OIC doing in this war.simple.the hizbullah is a shia organization so no need to interfere.
Muslims and Jews
Re: Muslims and Jews
A leaf straight from Kothar's book....Originally posted by shabir:
creating differences and calling others wrong has taken them in the wrong direction
Re: Muslims and Jews
No JC, you got me wrong."kisike dharam ko chedo nahi" does not mean you close your doors/brain into learning new things/religion.By all means,learn, understand and accept others´ religion. Do not criticise somebodys belief.We humans have no right to give a judgement on somebodys religion, belief, or following.
"aap ke dharam ko choro nahi."does not mean you follow whatever whatever any dick and harry says, God has given a human brains, and he hopes one uses it. Learn,question, discuss and then make your own judgement.
"aap ke dharam ko choro nahi."does not mean you follow whatever whatever any dick and harry says, God has given a human brains, and he hopes one uses it. Learn,question, discuss and then make your own judgement.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Well, this is an apt topic for our times. Jews are going to defend themselves...infact, this makes them strong and successful. In Islam, there's so much animosity between Shias/Sunnis/Wahabis/Ahemdis, that frankly even when the times call for unity, there is none.
One cannot blame Israel for their actions, only their heavy handed tactics. HizBAllah started this skirmish, forcing the conflict to flare. Hizbollah has done some extraordinary things in Lebanon, and they could have made that country more stable and powerful---but they resorted to the Semitic nature....kill first, and dominate. Hizbollah has the capacity to make tremendous impact in the region, if it stops dragging countries like Lebanon to the path of self-destruction.
Having said that, the U.S. and Isreal have a warped agenda to "take the fight to the terrorists" The U.S. has not learned its lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan, where our soldiers are massacred by the opposition forces constantly. BUT the question we have to ask ourselves is this: Saddam was toppled, and the SHia were free....so why not UNITE and make a country as a group, instead of all the infighting among the Shia/Sunni?
A house divided cannot stand on itself--President Lincoln.
The whole muslim Ulama must unite. If you want to make Isreal pay for their deeds...boycott their products! Saudi Arabia should ban all US imports, or levy 300% taxes on them! BUT DO NOT GO ON A KILLING SPREE THAT WILL ESCALATE EASILY, especially when you know you do not have to military strength of Isreal!
One cannot blame Israel for their actions, only their heavy handed tactics. HizBAllah started this skirmish, forcing the conflict to flare. Hizbollah has done some extraordinary things in Lebanon, and they could have made that country more stable and powerful---but they resorted to the Semitic nature....kill first, and dominate. Hizbollah has the capacity to make tremendous impact in the region, if it stops dragging countries like Lebanon to the path of self-destruction.
Having said that, the U.S. and Isreal have a warped agenda to "take the fight to the terrorists" The U.S. has not learned its lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan, where our soldiers are massacred by the opposition forces constantly. BUT the question we have to ask ourselves is this: Saddam was toppled, and the SHia were free....so why not UNITE and make a country as a group, instead of all the infighting among the Shia/Sunni?
A house divided cannot stand on itself--President Lincoln.
The whole muslim Ulama must unite. If you want to make Isreal pay for their deeds...boycott their products! Saudi Arabia should ban all US imports, or levy 300% taxes on them! BUT DO NOT GO ON A KILLING SPREE THAT WILL ESCALATE EASILY, especially when you know you do not have to military strength of Isreal!
Re: Muslims and Jews
Our own reform leadership is also the same.it is no different than the other muslim leadershipOriginally posted by tahir:
A leaf straight from Kothar's book....Originally posted by shabir:
creating differences and calling others wrong has taken them in the wrong direction
Re: Muslims and Jews
Our own leaders are involved in fighting with each other & tring to show their own importance. This is clear from what has happened & is happening in the reformist heartland udaipur
Re: Muslims and Jews
hmmm...u might be right....I'll go and check if reformist leaders conduct waaz and curse (laanat) caliphs, arrange murders of other contestents (shehzadas) of the gaddi, even dig the corpse of alternate dais and expel them from tombs, issue 'baraat' of people with differing opinions and torment their families till death....if this is true I'll know that in your dictionary the meaning of the word 'same' matches its standard usage.
Re: Muslims and Jews
that day will also be seen in near future when there is another major power struggle in our reformist leaders.we keep blaming kothar leadership but just see what our own leaders have delivered, they are all just trying to fulfill their personal ambitions & nothing more.nowadays the udaipur jamat tries to intefere in all matters, stop us from mixing with our relatives & terrorise some way or other. this is the ground reality as far as udaipur is concerned. the cirrent leaders are no different from the ones who left us.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Bro,Originally posted by galaxee:
we keep blaming kothar leadership but just see what our own leaders have delivered,
Plz speak for yourself. I don't think I share my leader with you since I am my own leader.
Re: Muslims and Jews
i ma referring to the so called people who claim to be the voice of the reformist in udaipur. They all have their won vested intrests & this has been proven by their selfish acts. Just go and see for for yourself what have these leaders done ever since they started to claim that they are the voice of udaipur bohras
Re: Muslims and Jews
Galaxee,
It seems you're from the Andromeda galaxy. Are all the beings there as disgruntled and constipated as you are? You seem to be a reformist but see nothing good about the movement.
Surely, nobody's claiming that things are perfect in Udaipur - but to compare it with the Kothar is quite a stretch. You must know that our movement is going through a very critical period - especially so in Udaipur - where we are weak in number and resources. The kothar has employed all the possible tactics to break up our movement and wrest all the properties from the reformists. In order to protect the movement and its properties the jamaat leaders have laid down certaint rules and wants reformists to abide by them. It may appear as harsh at times but to call these strategies as "terrorizing" is again a bit of a stretch.
The leaders you condemn as corrupt and selfish are not paid workers of the jamaat nor are they "professional" leaders or trained managers. They all work on voluntary basis, contributing their time and energy whenever they can. It's only the deep commitment of ordinary reformists that has kept the movement going so far. As far as I know, there's no struggle of succession amongst us. In fact, the irony is that there aren't enough people willing to work for the movement. If you're really committed to the cause of reform, you'd stop whinging about petty issues and start doing something to change the situation you're complaining about.
It seems you're from the Andromeda galaxy. Are all the beings there as disgruntled and constipated as you are? You seem to be a reformist but see nothing good about the movement.
Surely, nobody's claiming that things are perfect in Udaipur - but to compare it with the Kothar is quite a stretch. You must know that our movement is going through a very critical period - especially so in Udaipur - where we are weak in number and resources. The kothar has employed all the possible tactics to break up our movement and wrest all the properties from the reformists. In order to protect the movement and its properties the jamaat leaders have laid down certaint rules and wants reformists to abide by them. It may appear as harsh at times but to call these strategies as "terrorizing" is again a bit of a stretch.
The leaders you condemn as corrupt and selfish are not paid workers of the jamaat nor are they "professional" leaders or trained managers. They all work on voluntary basis, contributing their time and energy whenever they can. It's only the deep commitment of ordinary reformists that has kept the movement going so far. As far as I know, there's no struggle of succession amongst us. In fact, the irony is that there aren't enough people willing to work for the movement. If you're really committed to the cause of reform, you'd stop whinging about petty issues and start doing something to change the situation you're complaining about.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Muslims and Jews
I am a well-wisher of the Progressive movement and hoping that it will succeed. Your post however, does not exactly instill confidence in the movement; quite the contrary. To say that our movement is going through a very critical period - especially so in Udaipur - where we are weak in number and resources. is like saying that the Zionist movement is doing well except in Israel. Excuse the analogy but the topic after all is “Muslims and Jewsâ€
Re: Muslims and Jews
If they are not paid members & are working voluntarily then it does not mean that they can drive the reform movement as per their likes. Many of the ordinary reformists are losing their faith in these self professed leaders. They themselves are involed in back biting,fulfilling their personal scores/needs. So it is a gross mistake to call them as volunteers.I have been in the reform movement since its inception but i am sorry to say that today we are heading no where. All i can say is that reform leaders are worruied less for the upliftment of common man & are more intrested in getting their wishes/requirements being filled someway opr other.Originally posted by Humsafar:
Galaxee,
It seems you're from the Andromeda galaxy. Are all the beings there as disgruntled and constipated as you are? You seem to be a reformist but see nothing good about the movement.
Surely, nobody's claiming that things are perfect in Udaipur - but to compare it with the Kothar is quite a stretch. You must know that our movement is going through a very critical period - especially so in Udaipur - where we are weak in number and resources. The kothar has employed all the possible tactics to break up our movement and wrest all the properties from the reformists. In order to protect the movement and its properties the jamaat leaders have laid down certaint rules and wants reformists to abide by them. It may appear as harsh at times but to call these strategies as "terrorizing" is again a bit of a stretch.
The leaders you condemn as corrupt and selfish are not paid workers of the jamaat nor are they "professional" leaders or trained managers. They all work on voluntary basis, contributing their time and energy whenever they can. It's only the deep commitment of ordinary reformists that has kept the movement going so far. As far as I know, there's no struggle of succession amongst us. In fact, the irony is that there aren't enough people willing to work for the movement. If you're really committed to the cause of reform, you'd stop whinging about petty issues and start doing something to change the situation you're complaining about.
was salam
Re: Muslims and Jews
Even though I wasn't that stupid in my early teens, I have to agree with Average Bohra.
Infact the progressives, kothar and the Dai make up a triangle similar to the some muslim nations, Israel and America, where America is the false Dai that most Muslim nations are afraid to speak out against for whatever reasons. The Dai uses its kothar..Israel.. to inflict pain on all and still the Muslim nations are stuck to this Dai. The day the progressives decide to start thinking/working wihtout the need for the dai, will be the day they will be well and truly liberated from the clutches of the kothar.
Infact the progressives, kothar and the Dai make up a triangle similar to the some muslim nations, Israel and America, where America is the false Dai that most Muslim nations are afraid to speak out against for whatever reasons. The Dai uses its kothar..Israel.. to inflict pain on all and still the Muslim nations are stuck to this Dai. The day the progressives decide to start thinking/working wihtout the need for the dai, will be the day they will be well and truly liberated from the clutches of the kothar.
Re: Muslims and Jews
TAHERBHAI you are barking the wrong tree.
By the time you will be ready to go we wont see any stable progressive platform.seiffuddinbhai,TAHERBHAI, and asgherbhai will be the only players left scratching each others back.
By the time you will be ready to go we wont see any stable progressive platform.seiffuddinbhai,TAHERBHAI, and asgherbhai will be the only players left scratching each others back.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Hi Average Bohra
Could you answer my question. I would like to hear from you. I like to hear from Anjami and Average Bohras, Both of you have very different point of views.
So Average Bohra, accoriding to your research and analysis, why are jews so smart? Are they realy smart or its just luck? How did they achieve this position. I appreciate your answer.
Could you answer my question. I would like to hear from you. I like to hear from Anjami and Average Bohras, Both of you have very different point of views.
So Average Bohra, accoriding to your research and analysis, why are jews so smart? Are they realy smart or its just luck? How did they achieve this position. I appreciate your answer.
Re: Muslims and Jews
This means thatour insaf bhai,asgar bhai & team members should be renamed as Sheik Nasrallah’s,yasser arafat & so on.... who r/were busy trying to make a dent.Originally posted by anajmi:
Even though I wasn't that stupid in my early teens, I have to agree with Average Bohra.
Infact the progressives, kothar and the Dai make up a triangle similar to the some muslim nations, Israel and America, where America is the false Dai that most Muslim nations are afraid to speak out against for whatever reasons.
Re: Muslims and Jews
khuzema,
I am not so sure about jews being really smart and all. They have been living for centuries like the palestinians have been living for the last 50 years. Infact I would even suggest that the jews are the dumbest people on earth. Even after centuries of persecution they haven't learned a lesson.
I am not so sure about jews being really smart and all. They have been living for centuries like the palestinians have been living for the last 50 years. Infact I would even suggest that the jews are the dumbest people on earth. Even after centuries of persecution they haven't learned a lesson.
Re: Muslims and Jews
If the jews had been really smart, they would've been living the good life in America instead of the life they are living in Israel under contant threats, surrounded by hostile nations. And that too on land that was promised to them by God. Looks like he duped them too.
Re: Muslims and Jews
AB,
The reform movement is not a well-oiled machine like Zionism - or for that matter, the Kothar. If at all, it is a miracle that it still exists despite the best efforts of the clergy to crush it. We are forever strapped for money, surviving purely on donations and convictions and comittment of people. True, there has been no "marketing" campaigns to promote the movement - even so, I can't imagine how would that work, because the reform movement has very little to offer as an immediate gain except for freedom from the clutches of the clergy. But bohras for one reason or the other seem to prefer slavery to freedom.
Yes, reformists and its leaders must do more to promote the movement. Until we get around to doing that we cannot hope to achieve much, although the merits of the cause itself does need any advertising.
To say that accepting the Dai is the main impediment to the progress of the movement, is to show extreme ignorance of the purpose of the movement and the underpinnings of what makes one a dawoodi bohra. Let me repeat it for the umpteenth time that the reform movement is about social and administrative issues. The Dai and his position is not under discussion - like it or not.
Galaxee,
It would help if you gave specific examples of how the "leaders" are running the movement as they like. Besides, you should know the purpose of the movement is not to "uplift" the common man, even so the reformists are doing more by way of welfare activities that the entire Kothar put together. I'll urge you again to get involved, do something about the complaints you have and NOT grumble about it all the time.
The reform movement is not a well-oiled machine like Zionism - or for that matter, the Kothar. If at all, it is a miracle that it still exists despite the best efforts of the clergy to crush it. We are forever strapped for money, surviving purely on donations and convictions and comittment of people. True, there has been no "marketing" campaigns to promote the movement - even so, I can't imagine how would that work, because the reform movement has very little to offer as an immediate gain except for freedom from the clutches of the clergy. But bohras for one reason or the other seem to prefer slavery to freedom.
Yes, reformists and its leaders must do more to promote the movement. Until we get around to doing that we cannot hope to achieve much, although the merits of the cause itself does need any advertising.
To say that accepting the Dai is the main impediment to the progress of the movement, is to show extreme ignorance of the purpose of the movement and the underpinnings of what makes one a dawoodi bohra. Let me repeat it for the umpteenth time that the reform movement is about social and administrative issues. The Dai and his position is not under discussion - like it or not.
Galaxee,
It would help if you gave specific examples of how the "leaders" are running the movement as they like. Besides, you should know the purpose of the movement is not to "uplift" the common man, even so the reformists are doing more by way of welfare activities that the entire Kothar put together. I'll urge you again to get involved, do something about the complaints you have and NOT grumble about it all the time.
-
accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Muslims and Jews
I agree with Hamsafar. The purpose of the movement should be accountable, clean administration.
I, again concur with him, that DAI and Dawoodi bohra ideology is not in any way under question.
Let us bring about the real face of the religion, let us help in changing the current attitude.
One more thing, why should anyone criticize some one, who is volinturily working.
Put your own efforts in, try to change, help in change. Do your part, half the movement is success.
I, again concur with him, that DAI and Dawoodi bohra ideology is not in any way under question.
Let us bring about the real face of the religion, let us help in changing the current attitude.
One more thing, why should anyone criticize some one, who is volinturily working.
Put your own efforts in, try to change, help in change. Do your part, half the movement is success.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Br. accounty, It goes beyond the administative and accountability of the Dai.The position of Dai as God is one of them.I dont want them to control Bohras in their daily life.No more spending hours on end reciating praises,and long life,for Dai.
Re: Muslims and Jews
I disgree with most of you in your comparisons. Muslims in general are some of the most educated people...whatever field you mention.
This is not an issue of education..though it is an issue overall...but not key.
This is what Muslims do with there money? The rich shiekhs of arabia spend their money on boats, planes, and other toys. They don't spend it on their own infrastructure. This is the same in Africa, Asia and America. Why do you think the most intellegent people from India and Pakistan proper in the West...why are these people needed to come to the West? Because there isn't equivalent to use their abilities on at their home country!
Pakistan has people barely staying alive or uneducated...but yet they spend billions on nuclear weapons that don't help anyone.
This is not an issue of education..though it is an issue overall...but not key.
This is what Muslims do with there money? The rich shiekhs of arabia spend their money on boats, planes, and other toys. They don't spend it on their own infrastructure. This is the same in Africa, Asia and America. Why do you think the most intellegent people from India and Pakistan proper in the West...why are these people needed to come to the West? Because there isn't equivalent to use their abilities on at their home country!
Pakistan has people barely staying alive or uneducated...but yet they spend billions on nuclear weapons that don't help anyone.
Re: Muslims and Jews
seeker, your are right. The cult built around the
Dai is one of the main corruptions reformists have to deal with. When we say we accept the Dai, we mean we accept and respect the institution of the Dai but not the cult that surrounds him. The god-like status that he has inculcated among bohras is not only wrong but can also be condemned as shirk. Reformists want the office of the dai to be resotred to its original function - that of a spiritual leader and the head of the Dawat - nothing more nothing less.
Another critical issue we reformists have to contend with is the misinformation - propaganda - that the kothar spreads about the reform movement. Very few bohras outside the reformist circle know what the reformist movement is about. As one can see on this website, every orthodox devotee that comes to this site/forum comes with the misconception that we don't believe in the dai or that we want to elect our own dai or that we're jealous of the dai and his wealth and prestige and other such silly stuff. Few make the effort to understand what reformists want and what are their issues are with the Kothar. But then again, the silent majority instictively knows that the kothar's system is wholly corrupt but neither has the time, or the guts or even the need to rock the boat. They would rather pay "protection money" to the kothar the way they do to a local mafia. Unless and until a critical mass of bohras feel the real need for change, the reform movement unfortunately will remain in the doldrums. But in the meantime all those who believe in the reformist cause must keep trying.
Dai is one of the main corruptions reformists have to deal with. When we say we accept the Dai, we mean we accept and respect the institution of the Dai but not the cult that surrounds him. The god-like status that he has inculcated among bohras is not only wrong but can also be condemned as shirk. Reformists want the office of the dai to be resotred to its original function - that of a spiritual leader and the head of the Dawat - nothing more nothing less.
Another critical issue we reformists have to contend with is the misinformation - propaganda - that the kothar spreads about the reform movement. Very few bohras outside the reformist circle know what the reformist movement is about. As one can see on this website, every orthodox devotee that comes to this site/forum comes with the misconception that we don't believe in the dai or that we want to elect our own dai or that we're jealous of the dai and his wealth and prestige and other such silly stuff. Few make the effort to understand what reformists want and what are their issues are with the Kothar. But then again, the silent majority instictively knows that the kothar's system is wholly corrupt but neither has the time, or the guts or even the need to rock the boat. They would rather pay "protection money" to the kothar the way they do to a local mafia. Unless and until a critical mass of bohras feel the real need for change, the reform movement unfortunately will remain in the doldrums. But in the meantime all those who believe in the reformist cause must keep trying.
Re: Muslims and Jews
With statements like these coming out of the progressives, I seriously doubt the kothar needs anymore propaganda to spread misinformation about the progressives. Infact the progressives sound exactly like the kothar. Why should the bohras jump out of the frying pan and into the fire? Looks like galaxee hit the nail on the head.The Dai and his position is not under discussion - like it or not.
Re: Muslims and Jews
anajmi,
You have no idea what you are talking about. Being an ex-bohra and now a vehement wahabi it is is understandable that you should demean your former faith community and ridicule those who are trying to reform it. Of course, your constricted wahabi mind will never understand why the office of the dai is integral to Bohra faith, and if you read carefully you would know that your kindred freind Galaxee (the constant complanier like you) was not talking about the dai but what his lazy mind deemed to be inept reformist leaders.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Being an ex-bohra and now a vehement wahabi it is is understandable that you should demean your former faith community and ridicule those who are trying to reform it. Of course, your constricted wahabi mind will never understand why the office of the dai is integral to Bohra faith, and if you read carefully you would know that your kindred freind Galaxee (the constant complanier like you) was not talking about the dai but what his lazy mind deemed to be inept reformist leaders.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Anjami
Please read the following mission statement of progressive web site.
Welcome to the cyberhome of progressive Dawoodi Bohras. We are engaged in a struggle to bring about social reform in the community. We challenge the authoritarian ways of the priesthood and not the religious authority of the Da'i (high priest).
Please read the following mission statement of progressive web site.
Welcome to the cyberhome of progressive Dawoodi Bohras. We are engaged in a struggle to bring about social reform in the community. We challenge the authoritarian ways of the priesthood and not the religious authority of the Da'i (high priest).
Re: Muslims and Jews
Humsafar,
Dai is a creation of entities similar to kothar who want to rule the masses. He isn't an integral part of any faith. A Dai is just a tool, currently in the hands of the kothar and who knows, in the future, may be in the hands of the prothar.
omabharti,
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess that settles it then.
Dai is a creation of entities similar to kothar who want to rule the masses. He isn't an integral part of any faith. A Dai is just a tool, currently in the hands of the kothar and who knows, in the future, may be in the hands of the prothar.
omabharti,
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess that settles it then.
Re: Muslims and Jews
Humsafar,
You need not bother replying since I do not expect anything worthwhile from anybody whose only slogan is "wahabi wahabi wahabi".
You need not bother replying since I do not expect anything worthwhile from anybody whose only slogan is "wahabi wahabi wahabi".
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Muslims and Jews
Humsafar,Originally posted by Humsafar:
AB,
To say that accepting the Dai is the main impediment to the progress of the movement, is to show extreme ignorance of the purpose of the movement and the underpinnings of what makes one a dawoodi bohra. Let me repeat it for the umpteenth time that the reform movement is about social and administrative issues. The Dai and his position is not under discussion - like it or not.
.
You are right, the objective of the movement is consistent. Furthermore, the lack or participation would be enhanced by opposing the office of the Dai as it would equate to adopting a different sect and that is beyond the scope or intention of the Progressive movement. Bohras are obviously better off than Wahabis and most Sunnis.
I stand corrected.